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Message
re: Foremost Ukraine experts: This War is the USA's fault
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:02 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:02 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
I consider Mearscheimer to be the predominant leader of the discussion and he essentially comes out within the first 10 minutes and says it is USAs fault (as you say, by faulty foreign policy) - also essentially maintained that through the talk.
Unfortunately I cant engage with Mr Mearsheimer but I can engage with you...So how can you dismiss Putin's own actions , going 25 plus years back to when he was committing acts of theft and corruption as deputy mayor of St Petersburg all the way to today when he lies about shelling civilians as not contributing to the mess we are in?
This post was edited on 3/8/22 at 3:03 pm
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Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:04 pm to ThuperThumpin
You are just wrong.
Mearsheimer says that the west, mostly the USA is responsible for this disaster.
Maybe you could come up with some sort of response that reflects what Mearscheimer ACTUALLY said that was as you describe in the posts above because...
Mearscheimer clearly says it is the USA's/Wests fault
In fact he says PRECISELY THIS in the first 3.5 minutes of the discussion
Maybe you watched the wrong video. The link in the OP is the correct one.
You however are simply in error for some reason, which I presume will eventually be revealed.
Mearsheimer says that the west, mostly the USA is responsible for this disaster.
Maybe you could come up with some sort of response that reflects what Mearscheimer ACTUALLY said that was as you describe in the posts above because...
Mearscheimer clearly says it is the USA's/Wests fault
In fact he says PRECISELY THIS in the first 3.5 minutes of the discussion
Maybe you watched the wrong video. The link in the OP is the correct one.
You however are simply in error for some reason, which I presume will eventually be revealed.
This post was edited on 3/8/22 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:11 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
You are just wrong.
Mearsheimer says that the west, mostly the USA is responsible for this disaster.
Maybe you could come up with some sort of response that reflects what Mearscheimer said that was as you describe in the posts above because
Mearscheimer clearly says it is the USA's/Wests fault
In fact he say PRECISELY THIS in the first 3.5 minutes of the discussion
I'm not questioning him or his opinion because he is not in front of me. I'm asking you how you dismiss Putin's actions that contributed to the mess and put this squarely on the USA?
I've asked you two questions in my previous posts. 1(Putin in the last 20 years hasnt been able to make Russia as a more attractive ally and business partner than the USA, EU, NATO to ex Soviet bloc countries. Is that the fault of the USA too? ) and 2 (So how can you dismiss Putin's own actions , going 25 plus years back to when he was committing acts of theft and corruption as deputy mayor of St Petersburg all the way to today when he lies about shelling civilians as not contributing to the mess we are in?)
If you just want to refer to MR Mearsheimer arguments and not have a discussion thats fine too.
This post was edited on 3/8/22 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:14 pm to ThuperThumpin
Maybe you are confusing your video games with reality. Lots of people your age do that.
You clearly spouted off some sort of nonsense about what Mearscheimer ACTUALLY SAID for some reason.
Dont move the goalposts because of your embarrassing position
You clearly spouted off some sort of nonsense about what Mearscheimer ACTUALLY SAID for some reason.
Dont move the goalposts because of your embarrassing position
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:24 pm to JJJimmyJimJames
quote:
Maybe you are confusing your video games with reality. Lots of people your age do that.
You clearly spouted off some sort of nonsense about what Mearscheimer ACTUALLY SAID for some reason.
Dont move the goalposts because of your embarrassing position
How did I misrepresent Mearscheimer? I think his points are valid but I did disagree with his claim that might makes right in foreign policy as it seems to contradict his own argument to some degree. You are welcome to ask me anything you would like to defend my position. I keep asking you questions that you dont want to answer. How is that moving goal posts?
This post was edited on 3/8/22 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:25 pm to RollTide1987
quote:Interestingly, that was a memo put into place when there was still an expectation the US was actually trustworthy in its promises NATO would not expand, and would not take advantage of the Warsaw Pact dissolution. Who violated trust first? Second? Third? Forth? At what point does critique of previous agreements lose all credibility?
Putin violated the Memorandum of Security Assurances as it relates to Ukraine, of which Russia was a signatory back in 1994. Ukraine is an independent state who should be allowed to seek closer ties to western Europe and the United States should it choose to do so. I don't see how this is so difficult to understand.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:28 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
This War is the USA's fault
Could be our "fault" but we are not the perpetrators. Russia still has agency, and they are using that agency to shoot missiles at apartment buildings.
Russia warned the EU and the US for the past 15 years to keep Ukraine as a quasi neutral country. Russia isn’t blameless but they told the world they wouldn’t accept a Ukraine solidly aligned with the West…..Putin wasn’t lying.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:31 pm to Ghost of Barnwell
quote:on the whole internet?
You are the worst troll on the net......
Hands down.
Thanks, because that means its impactful. In addition I try to ALWAYS get to truth.
You may actually have something to say some day. You really could benefit from my posts too, if you remove that chip from your shoulder first
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:33 pm to Bass Tiger
quote:
Russia isn’t blameless but they told the world they wouldn’t accept a Ukraine solidly aligned with the West…..Putin wasn’t lying.
Yea and I think that was probably our biggest blunder was that we did not take the threat seriously.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:34 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:Perhaps you then could respond to an earlier post that apparently drove 'RollingwiththeTide' from the thread?
I'm not questioning him or his opinion because he is not in front of me. I'm asking you how you dismiss Putin's actions that contributed to the mess and put this squarely on the USA?
quote:
Some relevant questions and indisputable facts in that regard:
You do know G H W Bush promised the Soviets and Russia NATO would not take advantage of the situation if the Warsaw Pact dissolved, right?
You do know that Clinton, "W", Obama, and Biden all broke that promise, right?
You do know supposedly defensive NATO was used as an OFFENSIVE military force, targeting Russian allies during the Clinton Administration --- even to the point of forcing Yeltsin to threaten Russian War with NATO as a response, right?
On the heels of NATO's OFFENSIVE military operations in Europe, you do know Clinton twisted the arms of several existing NATO members in order to add three ex-Warsaw Pact nations to NATO. The Eastward expansion occurred over the vigorous objections of Yeltsin and a massive consensus of Russians, right?
You do know that Clinton's push to do so horribly undercut Yeltsin, and elevated a Russian nationalist named Putin into power, right?
You do know that one of Putin's earliest propositions to the US and NATO to deescalate perception of threat was for Russia to join NATO, but Clinton et al refused, right?
You do know in 2002, "W" completely disregarded his daddy's promises and Russia concern, and pushed for the addition of Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia to NATO, right?
You do know that at that time, not just Putin, but Russians across the board said this is as far as it goes. They felt, especially given NATO's previous offensive military actions in Europe, that NATO acquisition of Ukraine and/or Georgia would be directly threatening to Russia, so they issued a "bright red line" against such action, right?
Yet just 6yrs later, "W" and Condi disregarded Russian red-line warnings and pushed for the addition of Ukraine and Georgia to NATO. You do know that right?
As if to confirm Russian concern, a NATO agreement emboldened Georgia initiated hostilities targeting Russian border-area peacekeepers in August 2008. That action elicited a decisive Russian response which left no question as to Russian seriousness about its "bright red line". You do know that, right?
You do know that Obama was eager to push the Ukraine/Georgia NATO joinder, but frustrated by Ukrainian Government intransigence toward that end, he and his friends orchestrated a coup and instilled a Pro-NATO leader, right?
You do know that action triggered the Russian takeover of Crimea rather than risk NATO occupation of Crimean Naval Ports which would amount to cessation of the Black Sea to NATO, right?
You do know about Biden's continued December discussions with Zelensky about joining NATO despite all of the above, right?
------
This is not about "good guys" and "bad guys". There are no good guys in this! None! Discussion of "fault" is about provocation, in this case needless provocation. That was and is our doing. This was a war we provoked. It was avoidable.
LINK
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:35 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
Yea and I think that was probably our biggest blunder was that we did not take the threat seriously.
That is a bipartisan blunder btw.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 3:42 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Thanks. All of those points were very good, even though I had known of all of them I had never seen them laid out in this context
This is not about "good guys" and "bad guys". There are no good guys in this! None! Discussion of "fault" is about provocation, in this case needless provocation. That was and is our doing. This was a war we provoked. It was avoidable.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 4:29 pm to NC_Tigah
Thats a bit of gish gallop for a message board covo huh...lol. Some of these are absolutely avoidable provocations but some are over simplifications and overlook the situations that were also occurring in Moscow and other regions at the time.
An example would be Yeltsin promoted Putin to power bc he was aware of his shenanigans and knew he was Goodfella and would keep his mouth shut about Yeltsins own corruption.
At any case let's say all of this is 100% correct and the US has been undermining and provoking Putin for 20 years. He has lead essentially as a dictator for 20 years and done very little to attract the former Soviet bloc countries to working with him other than issuing threats. He is the dictator of shitty kleptocracy that kills or imprisons his own people that dare question or investigate his criminal enterprise. Other countries recognize this and don't need the US to convince them that getting in bed with him without having a Trump card is a bad deal. He bares responsibility for that alone.
An example would be Yeltsin promoted Putin to power bc he was aware of his shenanigans and knew he was Goodfella and would keep his mouth shut about Yeltsins own corruption.
At any case let's say all of this is 100% correct and the US has been undermining and provoking Putin for 20 years. He has lead essentially as a dictator for 20 years and done very little to attract the former Soviet bloc countries to working with him other than issuing threats. He is the dictator of shitty kleptocracy that kills or imprisons his own people that dare question or investigate his criminal enterprise. Other countries recognize this and don't need the US to convince them that getting in bed with him without having a Trump card is a bad deal. He bares responsibility for that alone.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 4:43 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Interestingly, that was a memo put into place when there was still an expectation the US was actually trustworthy in its promises NATO would not expand, and would not take advantage of the Warsaw Pact dissolution
There is nothing in the memo which has anything to do with forbidding Ukraine to join NATO or any other treaty/alliance with the west. Everything in that memorandum relates to the assurances that Ukraine's sovereignty and security will be maintained if it gave up its stockpile of nuclear weapons.
I repeat, there is no provision in the memo which states anything like the following: "All guarantees on Russia's part will be forthwith null and void should Ukraine try to join NATO."
The agreement was violated SOLELY by the Russian Federation and Vladimir Putin.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 4:43 pm to 4LSU2
quote:
It’s time Zelensky drops the MOAB of all the Clinton, Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Kerry, Graham, McConnell, etc family crimes laundering money from American tax paying citizens back to their own filthy pockets.
Don't stop there, get the slimy republicans who constantly sell us down the drain as well. Get every one of them.
Posted on 3/8/22 at 5:08 pm to 4LSU2
Know this I wanted to upvote but I just can’t change the 69. 
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