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re: Ecumenism - Is it happening??

Posted on 9/16/24 at 9:34 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45890 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 9:34 pm to
quote:

What is your basis for your interpretations of the Holy Scriptures?
The "analogy of faith", namely that Scripture interprets Scripture. That which is clear informs that which is unclear, for instance.

quote:

More pointedly, from what sources preceding you do you believe had the full deposit of the Faith and provided right dogma?
The whole Church, when in possession of the Scriptures, has the full deposit of the Faith which provides right doctrine.

quote:

Do you believe St. Ignatius of Antioch knew of what he was teaching? After all, he was one of the children who sat on the lap of Christ as he preached and went to his death proclaiming Christ as lions tore him apart.

How about St. Athanasius? After all, he was responsible for collating what we know as the New Testament and fought against the Arians.

St. Iranaeus? St. Seraphim of Sarov? St. Nicholas? St. Nina of Georgia? And on and on…

It’s the teachings of the Fathers and the Lives of the Saints that passed down the full deposit of the Faith and kept heresies such as Arianism, Nestorianism, Gnosticism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and other “isms” out of the one true Church.
Catholics absolutely butcher the church Fathers, cherry-picking quotes, interpreting them in light of later developed dogma and then re-impose those beliefs back into those texts to say that they believed what Rome teaches today. It's anachronistic and absolutely deceptive. I'll just pick one from your list, probably the most "problematic" given its age in Ignatius.

Ignatius is quoted due to his early attestation, being a contemporary of the Apostles. He is quoted from chapters 6 and 7 from his letter to the Smyrnians as being a proponent of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Here are his words that are often quoted:

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. (Ch. 6)

and

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. (Ch. 7)

What Catholics ignore is the first 5 chapters, where Ignatius is clearly defending the biblical teaching of Christ's physical birth, death, and resurrection against the heresy of the Docetists, who believed that Jesus didn't have a real body but only seemed to have one. Ignatius spends most of his letter defending the real body of Christ, saying he was of the physical line of David and had true body and blood. Then in chapters 6 and 7, he speaks to Christ's blood as being really shed and that you can tell who these false teachers are because they refuse to partake in the Eucharist, because they did not believe Jesus actually died in His body and therefore they deny His body and blood.

Here Ignatius isn't speaking of transubstantiation but of the reality of Christ's physical body and blood being broken and shed on the cross, which the Docetists deny and which is represented in the Eucharist, itself.

quote:

The only difference in papal infallibility (another 19th century RC heresy) and Protestantism is that Protestants makes themselves “everyman a pope” so that they can personally interpret Scriptures as they are so “led”.
While the Reformers recognized the privilege and obligation for each Christian to interpret the Bible, they did not claim that each person can interpret the Bible however they wish, as if the Scriptures were a relativistic bowl of alphabet soup that each person can rearrange int whatever they want. They taught that God had given us His revelation in the Bible and that we are free to read it and understand it ourselves rather than being subordinated to the teachings of fallible priests, cardinals, or popes. Catholics wrongfully think that means Protestants are allowed to believe whatever they want, but the reality is that we are to interpret the Bible according to God's own words and seek to understand the meaning God has given us rather than creating our own meaning.

quote:

There is no teaching by St. Paul or any of the other Apostles who would chide one for “not being Biblical”. They preached the Christ they knew and walked with and met on the road to Emmaus and the Fathers the Traditions as were handed down to them by apostolic succession.[/quote[Not quite. You added some of your Catholic doctrine to what was actually in the Scriptures in this statement, assuming that what was authoritatively passed down was something other than or in addition to the Scriptures and that apostolic succession was what they taught.

[quote]As a former Protestant (what exactly were we protesting 500 years later?), I was sick and tired of the constant splintering due to heresies throughout all of the denominations (LGBT, aborttion, abuse, false gospel, ad nauseam).
In this thread, I'm still protesting the tyranny of Rome that has led so many souls astray down the road of damnation with a false gospel. However, "Protestant" has developed into a moniker to distinguish between Roman Catholics and those Christians which have a non-Catholic history that developed from the Protestant Reformation. Just like Catholics are still called Catholics though they don't represent the catholic (universal) Church of Jesus Christ.

quote:

Thank GOD for technology and Youtube and podcasts…like so many thousands in America, we are returning to the FULLNESS of the Church in Holy Orthodoxy. It’s never changed and the only place where the Holy Scriptures and Holy Traditions are celebrated as they were from the beginning.
More anachronism. Catholics are fond of taking their current beliefs and imposing them back in history on the writings of the Patristics and early Christians/Theologians while claiming the Church has always believed in things like Papal infallibly or the Marian dogmas that were codified ~1900 years after Christ and had no mention in the earliest writings.

The Reformation was a blessing from God because it provided the only infallible rule for faith and life back to the people of God in the Scriptures. We have the fulness of God's revelation to Christ's Church located in that which is God-breathed.
This post was edited on 9/20/24 at 12:15 am
Posted by LeeeroyJenkins
Member since Aug 2024
852 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:03 pm to
I have read alot of your posts and jumped in today to comment to place light on truth and not sectarianism.

You obviously did not read my previous posts, as you would see I am not a Roman “Catholic”.

As my fellow Orthodox brother stated, this debate in polemics is serving no purpose.

If you would like to discuss the dogmas of the Orthodox Church, I would be happy to engage you. If not, God bless you and Lord have mercy on us all.
Posted by gaetti15
AK
Member since Apr 2013
14819 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:06 pm to
Posted by BamaScoop
Panama City Beach, Florida
Member since May 2007
56738 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:08 pm to
These people are the exact same type of people that crucified Jesus. They are consumed with rules and their own intellect and will never understand the message of Jesus Christ.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45890 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:10 pm to
quote:

You’re being disingenuous. They are not one and the same…the people trying to stone Christ were not His followers.
Except for Judas, who went from walking with Christ to turning Him over to be killed.

And yes, it is the same in the sense that many people rejected Christ for His teachings. And no, the people in John 6 were not devoted disciples as you are implying by calling them His "followers". The beginning of the chapter even says who they were: "And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick."

They weren't following Him because they believed in Him, devoting themselves to Him as their savior. They followed Him because they wanted to see a show and to be wowed by signs and wonders.

It's at this point that Jesus, seeing them approaching, decided to perform the miracle of the multiplication of the bread and fish. After the miracle, the crowd was amazed. They thought He was an earthly messiah that they could make a king rather than the son of God and spiritual savior of the world, so Jesus departed and the crowd followed.

It's this context that we see the crowd following Jesus the next day, even getting in boats to cross the sea. Jesus chides them by saying that they were just looking for their fill of bread. He then says that they shouldn't work so hard for food that perishes but for food that gives eternal life. He's rebuking them for looking for signs and wonders to fill their bellies and is directing them to the source of eternal nourishment and life in Himself.

quote:

Nowhere else in the Gospels does it talk specifically about the DISCIPLES of Christ during His time on earth turning back and walking with Him no more, except in relation to His COMMAND to take and EAT of His body and DRINK of His blood.
Again, there was Judas who was obviously an extreme example. There was Peter, who denied Christ three times. The other disciples of Christ abandoned Him in the garden of Gethsemane when He was being arrested. Lastly, while not quite a fervent disciple, the rich young ruler came to Jesus as a wise teacher and essentially rejected Him because he didn't like what Jesus had to say.

I should reiterate that the crowd that abandoned Christ were not close disciples but onlookers who benefited from His miracle and wanted to see more and be fed.

quote:

Your interpretations postulated on here never existed in the East nor the West until the 1600s…
I disagree. Just as the full doctrines of Rome developed over many centuries, so, too did the clarity of the doctrines of the Reformation. Several church fathers were cited during the Reformation, including and especially Augustine, for their support of the Reformed views of justification, for instance. However, the difference between the Reformers and the Catholics on this issue is that the Catholics need the fathers to agree with them because of "tradition" while the Reformers only needed to appeal to Scripture. And, because only Scripture is God-breathed, it honestly doesn't matter what the church fathers said in one sense, because they were fallible while God's Word alone is infallible.

quote:

even Luther and Calvin (both heretics on many issues) believed in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Not true. Luther believed in consubstantiation rather than transubstantiation while Calvin believed in the standard Reformed view that Christ was present spiritually but not physically in the elements. I quoted him from his Institutes earlier in this thread.

quote:

What AUTHORITY of the Church are you basing your theology on?
The only infallible authority for the faith and life of the Christian: the holy Scriptures.
This post was edited on 9/16/24 at 10:42 pm
Posted by Mephistopheles
Member since Aug 2007
8394 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:11 pm to

Nothing to contribute except this pic (hope it's working).

Even better version

This post was edited on 9/16/24 at 10:13 pm
Posted by gaetti15
AK
Member since Apr 2013
14819 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:16 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45890 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:16 pm to
quote:

I have read alot of your posts and jumped in today to comment to place light on truth and not sectarianism.

You obviously did not read my previous posts, as you would see I am not a Roman “Catholic”.

As my fellow Orthodox brother stated, this debate in polemics is serving no purpose.

If you would like to discuss the dogmas of the Orthodox Church, I would be happy to engage you. If not, God bless you and Lord have mercy on us all.
My apologies for calling you Roman Catholic. I must have missed that part initially as I'm normally engaging with Catholics like Champagne.

With that said, there is a lot of overlap with Orthodox and Catholic churches and many of the same complaints that Catholics have of Protestants, the Orthodox will also make. If you want to discuss something in particular from your perspective, I'd be happy to do so now that I recognize that you are not Catholic.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
45890 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:17 pm to
Good meme! I should make one that says the same thing but about the church fathers and Catholics

Posted by LeeeroyJenkins
Member since Aug 2024
852 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:22 pm to
I appreciate you taking the time to share your beliefs and your journey.

If I may, I would suggest a couple of podcasts you may enjoy that cover alot of subjects you may be interested in from an Orthodox perspective.

One is ‘Lord of Spirits’ where 2 Orthodox priests (one in Louisiana) cover alot of same history/subjects that Dr. Heiser used to and ‘The Symbolic World’ hosted by Jonathan Pageau.

As you state you’re an atheist, I will pray Lord have mercy on us both as you continue to seek Truth and hopefully come to know the “God who is beyond existence, indeed, beyond any conception we might have of Him”. God bless you.
Posted by gaetti15
AK
Member since Apr 2013
14819 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

Good meme! I should make one that says the same thing but about the church fathers and Catholics



I'm tired of arguing in these threads so instead I'll just post Catholic memes
Posted by Knartfocker
Member since Jun 2020
1656 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:29 pm to
quote:

One is ‘Lord of Spirits’ where 2 Orthodox priests (one in Louisiana) cover alot of same history/subjects that Dr. Heiser used to and ‘The Symbolic World’ hosted by Jonathan Pageau.


These are great podcasts, period.
Posted by OWLFAN86
Erotic Novelist
Member since Jun 2004
194976 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:35 pm to
inflammatory opening line
but an Interesting Opening combining elements of literature styling and historical fact

I've had this discussion with my Catholic friends where I make the argument it is not turning the wine into blood and some insist that it is

I'm content to think that it's an act of faith and belief that you're consuming it that is the literal consuming
Posted by Mr. Misanthrope
Cloud 8
Member since Nov 2012
6345 posts
Posted on 9/16/24 at 10:42 pm to
quote:

As I said before, Jesus used word pictures a lot, especially in John, to describe the salvation He brings to His people. He offered the Samaritan woman at the well "living water" (He was talking about Himself) and she thought He was talking about literal water.

Likewise, Catholics think that Jesus was talking about His literal body when He was talking about the salvation He brings to those who are hungry.

Foo,

I’m a supportive friend here but I believe you, and others, are twisting yourselves into knots with John 6, 1 Corinthians 11, and the three synoptic gospel accounts of the Last Supper.

Without doubt Jesus used word pictures to metaphorically present himself as living water or a door.

It seems clear John had in mind framing Jesus’s discourse in chapter 6 in the context of the Passover/Last Supper (v. 4) and Jesus’s language speaking of his body and his blood is pointed, graphic to the point of shocking believers, and not metaphorical.

St.Paul, St. Matthew, St. Mark, and St. Luke all recounted the Passover/Last Supper and Jesus’s institution of Holy Communion and his High Priestly blessing and consecration of the bread and wine.

In the accounts Jesus does not use metaphorical language. Unless we are willing to parse language like Bill Clinton, is means is. This is my body. This is my blood. Is means is.

My personal opinion is that that no priest, bishop, archbishop, cardinal, theologian, or the bishop of Rome himself can explain a divine, holy, mystery by insisting on transubstantiation and thereby dividing Christ’s Church, his Body that he bled and died to redeem.

Likewise, Protestants who claim to have a high view of Holy Scripture should give great weight to what Jesus said and what the synoptic gospels and St. Paul wrote about the first Holy Communion. Is means is.

This, of course, should also give Protestants pause and allow them to consider anew the nature of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church referenced in the Creeds and the nature of Sacraments and Sacramental worship.

The disputes respecting the nature of the Church and Sacraments divides Jesus’s Church more deeply than whether we call a man Pope or the Bishop of Rome.
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 8:58 am
Posted by Stitches
Member since Oct 2019
1242 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 12:13 am to
quote:

Catholics absolutely butcher the church Fathers, cherry-picking quotes, interpreting them in light of later developed dogma and then re-impose those beliefs back into those texts to say that they believed what Rome teaches today. It's anachronistic and absolutely deceptive.

Ignatius is quoted due to his early attestation, being a contemporary of the Apostles. He is quoted from chapters 6 and 7 from his letter to the Smyrnians as being a proponent of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


quote:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.


quote:

Here Ignatius isn't speaking of transubstantiation but of the reality of Christ's physical body and blood being broken and shed on the cross


quote:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ


The man literally immediately goes on to say the Docetists incur death because they reject the Eucharist (which he calls a gift from God), which is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. So the entire theme is spiritual death incurred by abstaining from the Eucharist. They abstain because they do not believe it to be the body and blood of our Lord. They do not believe it to be the body and blood of the Lord, because they do not believe He had a real physical body.

That is transubstantiation to its core. Ignatius might not have called it that, but the theology is absolutely the same, though more developed today.

You're the poster child of

quote:

butcher the church Fathers, cherry-picking quotes, interpreting them in light of later developed dogma and then re-impose those beliefs back into those texts to say that they believed what Calvinism that was unknown for one-and-a-half MILLENIA after the ascension teaches today


The issue is not whether Ignatius believed in the St. Thomas' formulation of the Real Presence. That makes no sense historically. Another, better way of asking the question is this: If Ignatius of Antioch were introduced to St. Thomas's way of articulating the doctrine, would he have recognized it as capturing what he affirmed, or would he have sided with those who denied transubstantiation?

The answer to that question should be obvious. He would side with the Catholic church, you know....the one mentioned by name in Chapter 8 of the same letter....the same Chapter where he mentions the three-fold structure of Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, which is in opposition to

quote:

In the beginning, the church was Presbyterian (elder-ruled) and slowly turned into an episcopate where one bishop eventually took prominence until a singular bishop became supreme based on their location in Rome.


But this is the only comment I'll be contributing to this thread, because frankly, Calvinism in nothing more than modern gnosticism with a heavy dose of presuppositionalism added in.

This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 10:21 am
Posted by Mid Iowa Tiger
Undisclosed Secure Location
Member since Feb 2008
23934 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:36 am to
Your twisting of John 6 doesn’t negate the actual words of Jesus. There are dozens of versus where Christ talks about the Eucharist and he never once tries to calm the concerns about what he is saying.

That aside, take a look at what the early church taught. Read Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, or Ireneous and you will find an early church who believed the the Eucharist was the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Mass was participation in the last supper.

I appreciate your openness and not flaming, but truly read some first and second century church writings and it may blow you away.


Posted by prplhze2000
Parts Unknown
Member since Jan 2007
57050 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 8:10 am to
Mary and purgatory are two big reasons why it won't happen
Posted by Stinger_1066
On a golf course
Member since Jul 2021
2899 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 9:59 am to
quote:

It's really kind of depressing watching Christians tear into each other in threads like this.


More like entertaining.
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 10:01 am
Posted by GoofAg
Member since Jul 2021
75 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 10:06 am to
Listen to Bishop Fulton Sheen. The Catholic Church is absolutely against communism.
Posted by Mr. Misanthrope
Cloud 8
Member since Nov 2012
6345 posts
Posted on 9/17/24 at 1:28 pm to
quote:

…not whether head coverings are required in worship.

Which of course they should be. That is something Protestants, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox should all be able to agree upon.
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