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Message

Does War Pay? I asked Grok. Here is an alternative history.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:21 pm
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:21 pm
Timeline: Pacifist U.S. (1945–2015)
1945–1949: U.S. adopts pacifism, halving defense (~$350B/yr). Navy (~$50B/yr) guards trade. NATO (12 members) deters Soviets. Monroe Doctrine bars rivals from Americas. No trade with Mao’s China; tariffs limit growth (GDP ~$50B). Savings (~$500B) fund infrastructure, education, raising income (~$50,000, 2023 dollars). Navy ensures trade (~$100B).
1950–1953: No Korean War; North Korea unifies peninsula under communism, a loss (no South Korea). Korea aligns with China, fueling Soviet-Chinese rivalry. Navy protects Japan’s trade. Savings (~$1T) fund healthcare (~80 yrs life expectancy vs. 78.6). Manufacturing grows.
1954–1960: Soviets control Eastern Europe, take Austria. Vietnam unifies communist (1957), sparing ~1–2M deaths, joins China. U.S. tariffs cap China’s GDP (~$100B). Low debt (~$1T vs. $33T) boosts education (~45% bachelor’s). Navy secures oil (~$200B trade).
1961–1970: Iraq counters Iran, stabilizing Syria, Lebanon. No Israel aid limits 1967 gains, possibly enabling Palestinian state. Christians avoid losses (~10,000–50,000 deaths). Savings (~$3T) drive 3–3.5% GDP growth. China’s unrest grows. Soviet spending sparks dissent.
1971–1979: No Peking visit; U.S. protectionism limits China’s GDP (~$300B). Sino-Vietnamese War (1979, ~50,000 deaths) drains rivals. Taiwan resists with navy. U.S. income ~$70,000, wages high ($1,300/wk). Navy curbs China’s sea claims.
1980–1990: Soviet spending (~$500B/yr) and rivalry cause stagnation. Collapse delayed (~2000). U.S. savings (~$6T) fund healthcare (~$8,000/person vs. $12,555), living standard ~80/100. China’s GDP (~$500B) limits reach. Navy ensures $500B trade.
1991–2000: Soviet collapse (~2000); Russia keeps Ukraine, Belarus. NATO deters. Iraq prevents ISIS, sparing Christians (~2,000–10,000 deaths). U.S. income ~$85,000. China’s GDP (~$1T) curbs ambitions. Monroe Doctrine blocks rivals.
2001–2015: No 9/11, wars save ~$4–6T. China takes Taiwan (~2005, GDP ~$3T vs. $11T). Russia dominates satellites; EU delayed. Middle East stable.
Why Wars Didn’t Pay: Real wars cost $18–22T, 4.1–7.2M lives, destabilized regions (Iraq aiding Iran, ISIS), fueled China ($690B trade), and rallied communists. Benefits (influence, trade) were offset by debt ($33T), inequality (Gini 0.41). Simulation achieves same with half cost, better living standards.
China Policy: No Peking visit, tariffs kept China’s GDP ~$3T, curbing expansion, preventing U.S. deindustrialization. High U.S. wages sustain income.
Policy Lessons: Navy ($50B/yr) secures trade. 1949 NATO deters rivals. Monroe Doctrine bars Americas rivals. Fiscal restraint balances investment, debt. Limit rival trade to exploit weaknesses. Wars didn’t pay; restraint ensures prosperity.
1945–1949: U.S. adopts pacifism, halving defense (~$350B/yr). Navy (~$50B/yr) guards trade. NATO (12 members) deters Soviets. Monroe Doctrine bars rivals from Americas. No trade with Mao’s China; tariffs limit growth (GDP ~$50B). Savings (~$500B) fund infrastructure, education, raising income (~$50,000, 2023 dollars). Navy ensures trade (~$100B).
1950–1953: No Korean War; North Korea unifies peninsula under communism, a loss (no South Korea). Korea aligns with China, fueling Soviet-Chinese rivalry. Navy protects Japan’s trade. Savings (~$1T) fund healthcare (~80 yrs life expectancy vs. 78.6). Manufacturing grows.
1954–1960: Soviets control Eastern Europe, take Austria. Vietnam unifies communist (1957), sparing ~1–2M deaths, joins China. U.S. tariffs cap China’s GDP (~$100B). Low debt (~$1T vs. $33T) boosts education (~45% bachelor’s). Navy secures oil (~$200B trade).
1961–1970: Iraq counters Iran, stabilizing Syria, Lebanon. No Israel aid limits 1967 gains, possibly enabling Palestinian state. Christians avoid losses (~10,000–50,000 deaths). Savings (~$3T) drive 3–3.5% GDP growth. China’s unrest grows. Soviet spending sparks dissent.
1971–1979: No Peking visit; U.S. protectionism limits China’s GDP (~$300B). Sino-Vietnamese War (1979, ~50,000 deaths) drains rivals. Taiwan resists with navy. U.S. income ~$70,000, wages high ($1,300/wk). Navy curbs China’s sea claims.
1980–1990: Soviet spending (~$500B/yr) and rivalry cause stagnation. Collapse delayed (~2000). U.S. savings (~$6T) fund healthcare (~$8,000/person vs. $12,555), living standard ~80/100. China’s GDP (~$500B) limits reach. Navy ensures $500B trade.
1991–2000: Soviet collapse (~2000); Russia keeps Ukraine, Belarus. NATO deters. Iraq prevents ISIS, sparing Christians (~2,000–10,000 deaths). U.S. income ~$85,000. China’s GDP (~$1T) curbs ambitions. Monroe Doctrine blocks rivals.
2001–2015: No 9/11, wars save ~$4–6T. China takes Taiwan (~2005, GDP ~$3T vs. $11T). Russia dominates satellites; EU delayed. Middle East stable.
Why Wars Didn’t Pay: Real wars cost $18–22T, 4.1–7.2M lives, destabilized regions (Iraq aiding Iran, ISIS), fueled China ($690B trade), and rallied communists. Benefits (influence, trade) were offset by debt ($33T), inequality (Gini 0.41). Simulation achieves same with half cost, better living standards.
China Policy: No Peking visit, tariffs kept China’s GDP ~$3T, curbing expansion, preventing U.S. deindustrialization. High U.S. wages sustain income.
Policy Lessons: Navy ($50B/yr) secures trade. 1949 NATO deters rivals. Monroe Doctrine bars Americas rivals. Fiscal restraint balances investment, debt. Limit rival trade to exploit weaknesses. Wars didn’t pay; restraint ensures prosperity.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:28 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
I asked Grok. Here is an alternative history.
I mean you can write whatever fanfic you want.
There is not an ounce of real information in here.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:29 pm to Narax
How can an alternative history contain real facts.
There are real facts for the actual history. A whole bunch of death and wasted money.
There are real facts for the actual history. A whole bunch of death and wasted money.
This post was edited on 6/6/25 at 7:30 pm
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:36 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
How can an alternative history contain real facts.
There are real facts for the actual history. A whole bunch of death and wasted money.
They can't.
Your alternative path could have led to even more death and wasted money.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:37 pm to Narax
So your saying George Wahington was wrong and all the loser president's from the last 75 years were correct?
This post was edited on 6/6/25 at 7:38 pm
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:44 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
So your saying George Wahington was wrong and all the loser president's from the last 75 years were correct?
I'm saying it's impossible to know.
I'd also note that one of the first things George Washington would say if he came back would be what's that thing you all carry in your hands.
You may dislike the presidents of the last 75 years and how they did things, but I promise you your idea broke down after 1939.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:46 pm to Narax
Oh bullshite. That 1839 crap has been used to justify every war. It's weak minded to use it.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:56 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
Oh bullshite. That 1839 crap has been used to justify every war. It's weak minded to use it.
1939, and yes, things changed, the national mood was different.
After that America took on the global leader role.
That was fantastic for our trade.
It allowed us to control much of the Middle East Oil market.
Was Vietnam a mess? Sure.
But we don't know what would have happened if we took another path, and any pretense at "pacifism" is just foolishness.
This post was edited on 6/6/25 at 7:57 pm
Posted on 6/6/25 at 7:57 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
I asked Grok.
I already hate this shite.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:02 pm to Narax
We're 0-4-1 buddy. Are you saying that changed the world for the better?
We totally ruined the middle east.
Are you familiar with the Chinese Vietnam War?
The Chinese basically got their arse kicked.
It's not as easy for the boogie man to take and hold countries that don't want it.
Our running around the globe starting and then quitting one war after another didn't save the day. It did destroy our financial future.
We totally ruined the middle east.
Are you familiar with the Chinese Vietnam War?
The Chinese basically got their arse kicked.
It's not as easy for the boogie man to take and hold countries that don't want it.
Our running around the globe starting and then quitting one war after another didn't save the day. It did destroy our financial future.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:05 pm to RiverCityTider
7/10 stars. Not enough Werewolves fricking the female protagonist.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:12 pm to RiverCityTider
quote:
Our running around the globe starting and then quitting one war after another didn't save the day. It did destroy our financial future.
Really...
Because Grok said so...
You do know it's extra deferential, no matter what insanity you ask for it will make up something that is ludicrous.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:21 pm to Narax
I'm very familiar with its strengths and weaknesses.
But it's self evident that starting and losing wars isn't effective foreign policy.
But it's self evident that starting and losing wars isn't effective foreign policy.
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:30 pm to RiverCityTider
Lots of “fund health care” in there
Was that really a thing in 1950?
Was that really a thing in 1950?
Posted on 6/6/25 at 8:34 pm to RiverCityTider
The MIC gets paid so war pays for them.
The Mexican War paid off for us.
Modern wars don’t pay. Russia is bleeding soldiers and treasure for territory that is in rubble. They will have to spend more to repair it than it is worth.
The Mexican War paid off for us.
Modern wars don’t pay. Russia is bleeding soldiers and treasure for territory that is in rubble. They will have to spend more to repair it than it is worth.
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