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Message
Does IVF create abortions?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:34 pm
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:34 pm
To be clear. I am not going to argue on a legal basis. I simply want to frame the ethical/religous basis whether or not IVF is a moral good, bad, or neither.
To define abortion, one must first determine what is an abortion?
My definition is the intentional termination of a unique human life
Second. Is an embryo a unique human life?
Third. If the embryo continues on in its natural development uninterrupted, will it become anything other than an adult human being?
Fourth. Does the process of IVF always result in the termination of embryos (human lives)? Whether it be from the lab creating multiple embryos and discarding the ones that are not wanted, and also placing them in a freezer often to be discarded later down the road.
Fifth. If IVF ultimately results in abortions. How can anyone of a Christian faith support it?
................................
In summary. If multiple sins are committed even with the end intent to do good and create a new human life. Is this still ethical? Christians celebrate new life, but the teachings are pretty clear about the path being narrow.
There are other examples of sin that can create new life, such as rape. If a person is created from rape, they are still valuable, while we still recognize the evil of the act that created the life. But we also don't go around advocating for more rapes as a means to create more children. This would be considered disordered behavior.
To define abortion, one must first determine what is an abortion?
My definition is the intentional termination of a unique human life
Second. Is an embryo a unique human life?
Third. If the embryo continues on in its natural development uninterrupted, will it become anything other than an adult human being?
Fourth. Does the process of IVF always result in the termination of embryos (human lives)? Whether it be from the lab creating multiple embryos and discarding the ones that are not wanted, and also placing them in a freezer often to be discarded later down the road.
Fifth. If IVF ultimately results in abortions. How can anyone of a Christian faith support it?
................................
In summary. If multiple sins are committed even with the end intent to do good and create a new human life. Is this still ethical? Christians celebrate new life, but the teachings are pretty clear about the path being narrow.
There are other examples of sin that can create new life, such as rape. If a person is created from rape, they are still valuable, while we still recognize the evil of the act that created the life. But we also don't go around advocating for more rapes as a means to create more children. This would be considered disordered behavior.
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 12:36 pm
35
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:36 pm to burger bearcat
We have two embryos, and we are going to use them because I feel obligated not to leave one behind.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:39 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
If IVF ultimately results in abortions. How can anyone of a Christian faith support it?
Moral relativism that is largely the product of bible alone theology, whereby every man gets to interpret and decide for themselves what is true and "allowed" without any oversight from the pillar and foundation of truth....the Church.
This post was edited on 2/19/25 at 12:55 pm
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:40 pm to mule74
quote:
We have two embryos, and we are going to use them because I feel obligated not to leave one behind.
Do most embryos get used or discarded?
Embryos are often discarded for various reasons if the lab finds them to be defective.
What happens if they determine one of the embryos will have down syndrome? What % of people would decide to use that embryo?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:40 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
the intentional termination of a unique human life
I mean, yeah
Another aspect that’s normally glossed over is that fig couples can dial up a baby in this industry. Some of us don’t think that’s Gods law of which natural law follows.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:42 pm to burger bearcat
The real question (which you avoided for some reason) is “does IVF necessitate an increase in abortion?”
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:42 pm to Stitches
quote:
Moral relativism that results from bible alone theology.
I would argue the morality predates the Bible. It's natural, universal morality.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:43 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
What happens if they determine one of the embryos will have down syndrome? What % of people would decide to use that embryo?
What test would you run on the embryo to determine that?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:44 pm to burger bearcat
I think it can become one for unused embryos. The moral thing to do would be to permit adoptions of them.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:45 pm to the808bass
quote:
The real question (which you avoided for some reason) is “does IVF necessitate an increase in abortion?”
Alot of IVF procedures involve implanting multiple embryos, hoping one attaches. This necessitates the need to abort the other embryos.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:46 pm to burger bearcat
I think at absolute minimum it creates serious moral questions (especially for the Christian). I'll admit we've been down this road, although we never had to confront the common quandaries many do, but that's another story.
Expanding IVF is just the wrong tactic for a pro-family administration, especially as a top line priority. That may not prove to be the case, but obviously it's getting pushed by the administration for some reason (presumably they think it'll sell).
If the administration wants to make this a big part of a "pro-family" agenda, I think at minimum:
- We need to address the reality of why IVF is increasingly part of the conversation for traditional families (we're getting married much later and encountering fertility struggles more often). Focus on that first and foremost with IVF accessibility being a contingency item.
- What probably won't happen, but is an absolutely deal breaker for the Christian IMO - it has to account for the dangers of surrogacy/LGBT misuse. A pro-family policy cannot include the use of science to create children to unnatural parents who pay for the child to be borne by a third party.
Expanding IVF is just the wrong tactic for a pro-family administration, especially as a top line priority. That may not prove to be the case, but obviously it's getting pushed by the administration for some reason (presumably they think it'll sell).
If the administration wants to make this a big part of a "pro-family" agenda, I think at minimum:
- We need to address the reality of why IVF is increasingly part of the conversation for traditional families (we're getting married much later and encountering fertility struggles more often). Focus on that first and foremost with IVF accessibility being a contingency item.
- What probably won't happen, but is an absolutely deal breaker for the Christian IMO - it has to account for the dangers of surrogacy/LGBT misuse. A pro-family policy cannot include the use of science to create children to unnatural parents who pay for the child to be borne by a third party.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:47 pm to the808bass
quote:
What test would you run on the embryo to determine that?
If the technology doesn't already exist to detect DS, I imagine it will in the near future. They can detect sex.
It was one example.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:48 pm to burger bearcat
I'm almost positive you can (and do) do genetic screening for DS preimplantation.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:49 pm to burger bearcat
Life begins at conception, but that doesn't mean it's going to make it.
It's a miracle that we reproduce at all. 200 million sperm per ej to reach 1 egg that has to reach the uterus lining and stick.
There are a lot of moving parts to make life and it's so nuanced at this point that it's not worth debating.
Abortion is a clear intent to end a life. Where as IVF is trying to start a life.
It's a miracle that we reproduce at all. 200 million sperm per ej to reach 1 egg that has to reach the uterus lining and stick.
There are a lot of moving parts to make life and it's so nuanced at this point that it's not worth debating.
Abortion is a clear intent to end a life. Where as IVF is trying to start a life.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:50 pm to burger bearcat
I will say this… before we adopted we did 1 round of IVF and implanted multiple embryos. None survived and I was left thinking of the others that were discarded or not implanted. It felt morally wrong and I couldn’t bring myself to do another round. That was the moment we decided to adopt.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:51 pm to swamptiger99
quote:
Abortion is a clear intent to end a life. Where as IVF is trying to start a life.
Sure, but that's much more ethically appealing when it's a desperate couple trying it.
vs. an unnatural couple doing it and creating a bunch of lives and then picking which to attempt to use and discarding the rest - no?
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:51 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Does the process of IVF always result in the termination of embryos
Yes - as do other types of external fertilization techniques.
I think IVF is unethical, immoral, and sinful.
There is IUI.
https://www.justmommies.com/getting-pregnant/having-problems-getting-pregnant/3-fertility-alternatives-to-consider-before-you-tu
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:52 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
It was one example.
I think you mean it was a wild-assed guess.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:53 pm to LSUGrrrl
quote:
I will say this… before we adopted we did 1 round of IVF and implanted multiple embryos. None survived and I was left thinking of the others that were discarded or not implanted. It felt morally wrong and I couldn’t bring myself to do another round. That was the moment we decided to adopt.
Similar, except we had none that made it to implantation so we didn't have tough choices there. We prayed about it and abandoned it. Got naturally pregnant with twins two months later.
Posted on 2/19/25 at 12:54 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
Alot of IVF procedures involve implanting multiple embryos, hoping one attaches.
I’m very aware of what “a lot” of IVF procedures involve. I asked a yes or no question.
You’re weighting the argument to your desired outcome. Just have a normal discussion.
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