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re: common core continues Holocaust Hoax Assignment
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:22 am to JEAUXBLEAUX
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:22 am to JEAUXBLEAUX
As long as it's taught as a critical thinking/debate exercise, I have no problem with this. 8th grade is a bit too early, though. Get into high school and then go after this stuff.
Which brings me to my next question? Why all the hate for Jews? Muslims want the State of Israel off the map. I get that. Home/holy land battle. What I don't get is Europe. Hitler tried to exterminate them, and now Russia has them register. Why?
Which brings me to my next question? Why all the hate for Jews? Muslims want the State of Israel off the map. I get that. Home/holy land battle. What I don't get is Europe. Hitler tried to exterminate them, and now Russia has them register. Why?
1
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:26 am to YipSkiddlyDooo
quote:
So the student who decides the holocaust was a fictitious event based on his/her research will fail the assignment?
I have no idea how the grading is done.
They clearly did something wrong, though, and its up to them and the teacher to figure out what. (learning, I think that's what they call it). As I have mentioned - the denialist evidence is easily debunked. If you can't debunk it yourself then you are failing in some way.
If you roll balls down inclines and use your data to compute g=424 m/s^2 - you did something wrong, didn't you? Do you honestly think for a minute a physics teac
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 10:27 am
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:27 am to SpidermanTUba
Aren't we jumping the gun? The average middle schooler, or even high school graduate, knows a little about the Holocaust, a lot about slavery and a fair amount about the civil rights movement.
They know nothing about WWI, Korea, Vietnam. They know little about WW2, the Cold War, the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I favor critical thinking exercises where appropriate, but only after a good foundation has been laid. Learn, then question and debate. Doing them simultaneously will very much limit what is actually absorbed.
I understand that a classical education is subject to bad history or bad science, but critical thinking is entirely subjective and much more susceptible to indoctrination.
They know nothing about WWI, Korea, Vietnam. They know little about WW2, the Cold War, the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I favor critical thinking exercises where appropriate, but only after a good foundation has been laid. Learn, then question and debate. Doing them simultaneously will very much limit what is actually absorbed.
I understand that a classical education is subject to bad history or bad science, but critical thinking is entirely subjective and much more susceptible to indoctrination.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:28 am to Pettifogger
I should say
if the actual intent of this exercise is to introduce doubt as to the holocaust happening, it is dispicable and just plain racist.
I haven't seen anything that indicates that to be the case, however. If anything students will come out of the assignment less likely to become holocaust denialists because they will have the rebuttal to any denialist argument. I seriously doubt the average 8th grader can list 3 pieces of physical evidence that the holocaust happened - shouldn't they be able to though?
if the actual intent of this exercise is to introduce doubt as to the holocaust happening, it is dispicable and just plain racist.
I haven't seen anything that indicates that to be the case, however. If anything students will come out of the assignment less likely to become holocaust denialists because they will have the rebuttal to any denialist argument. I seriously doubt the average 8th grader can list 3 pieces of physical evidence that the holocaust happened - shouldn't they be able to though?
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 10:31 am
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:31 am to SoulGlo
Christians were subject to Usury laws by the Church which made the charging of interest on loans a cardinal sin. Jews saw usury as a sin only when charging interest above a certain threshold to fellow Jews, but Christians were fair game. Because Jews were the only ones offering loans (because they were the only ones who could morally charge interest to Christians), they grew wealthy and powerful and became Europe's bankers. People always hate others who are different and people always envy those who are wealthy. Bankers are an easy scapegoat.
In Spain, the Jews were targeted because they had opposed the kingdoms that had united Spain on account of those kingdoms (Castile and Aragon) waging a religious war as well as a political one. Queen Isabella wanted to purify Spain of the Muslims and Jews. The Jews of Spain (including Christopher Colombus, either converted to Christianity, were exiled, or were executed by the Spanish Inquisition (no one expected them)).
In Spain, the Jews were targeted because they had opposed the kingdoms that had united Spain on account of those kingdoms (Castile and Aragon) waging a religious war as well as a political one. Queen Isabella wanted to purify Spain of the Muslims and Jews. The Jews of Spain (including Christopher Colombus, either converted to Christianity, were exiled, or were executed by the Spanish Inquisition (no one expected them)).
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:34 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
They clearly did something wrong, though, and its up to them and the teacher to figure out what. (learning, I think that's what they call it). As I have mentioned - the denialist evidence is easily debunked. If you can't debunk it yourself then you are failing in some way.
And therein lies the problem. You just went against everything 'common core' stands for. Of course you don't understand that because you really don't understand the purpose/goals of common core and instead just post on every thread for the sake of arguing. Well done.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:36 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
I haven't seen anything that indicates that to be the case, however. If anything students will come out of the assignment less likely to become holocaust denialists because they will have the rebuttal to any denialist argument. I seriously doubt the average 8th grader can list 3 pieces of physical evidence that the holocaust happened - shouldn't they be able to though?
I really don't care much about the specifics, just the concept that we're spending time on critical thinking exercises with (presumably) average 8th graders. I think it is a fine exercise if performed correctly by good teachers, but I think we're injecting a debate into the lives of these kids, and the kids were not previously aware, at all, of the concept of this debate.
Again, no problem with the debate itself, but the baseline probably isn't there. I heavily favor classical education at these ages. If we get to the point where 8th graders understand WW1, what happened in the aftermath in Germany, how Hitler came to power, how the Holocaust was put in to place, and the fall of Hitler's Germany through WW2, then I'm fine with talking about this exercise.
But we've got limited time with students, and limited money, and having (no offense to good teachers) a mediocre graduate of a mediocre college try to perform a critical thinking exercise on a historical event these kids have a very weak understanding of just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
More and more kids are going to college without any knowledge, and leaving with arguably less because of the way higher education functions in this country. We're creating swaths of kids who question everything but know nothing.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:37 am to YipSkiddlyDooo
quote:
And therein lies the problem. You just went against everything 'common core' stands for. Of course you don't understand that because you really don't understand the purpose/goals of common core and instead just post on every thread for the sake of arguing. Well done.
What are you, the 'common core' expert?
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:39 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:So then would it be appropriate to ask students to do research and provide evidence to support the claim that welfare has been more destructive to the African American family unit than slavery? A claim that has gotten more than one academic who actually did consult the data into hot water.
Yeah I don't really get the fuss.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:39 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I really don't care much about the specifics, just the concept that we're spending time on critical thinking exercises with (presumably) average 8th graders. I think it is a fine exercise if performed correctly by good teachers, but I think we're injecting a debate into the lives of these kids, and the kids were not previously aware, at all, of the concept of this debate.
Again, no problem with the debate itself, but the baseline probably isn't there. I heavily favor classical education at these ages. If we get to the point where 8th graders understand WW1, what happened in the aftermath in Germany, how Hitler came to power, how the Holocaust was put in to place, and the fall of Hitler's Germany through WW2, then I'm fine with talking about this exercise.
But we've got limited time with students, and limited money, and having (no offense to good teachers) a mediocre graduate of a mediocre college try to perform a critical thinking exercise on a historical event these kids have a very weak understanding of just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
More and more kids are going to college without any knowledge, and leaving with arguably less because of the way higher education functions in this country. We're creating swaths of kids who question everything but know nothing.
I agree that it may not have been the best choice of assignment - but not for the reasons suggested by those who think its somehow a racist assignment.
I would have picked moon landing denialism as a less racially controversial subject for the exercise. Again - same situation - all the denalist points can be debunked, if you do your homework!
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 10:41 am
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:42 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
What are you, the 'common core' expert?
Says the guy who knows everything
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:42 am to LSUnKaty
quote:
So then would it be appropriate to ask students to do research and provide evidence to support the claim that welfare has been more destructive to the African American family unit than slavery? A claim that has gotten more than one academic who actually did consult the data into hot water.
Which academics? I am not familiar.
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 10:44 am
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:43 am to YipSkiddlyDooo
quote:
Says the guy who knows everything
Link?
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:50 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
I would have picked moon landing denialism as a less racially controversial subject for the exercise. Again - same situation - all the denalist points can be debunked, if you do your homework!
Yeah that's fair and would be fun.
I did enrichment/gifted/AP classes my entire life, and we did tons of critical thinking exercises like that, especially before high school. But we were also different kids. Not to say we're all smarter than kids not in those classes, which certainly wasn't the case, but the most common characteristic for us was that we wanted to acquire knowledge, in and out of the classroom, and thus being fed knowledge in class wasn't as important. It freed us up to go off on tangents in class without missing valuable time. I also acknowledge that putting the wrong kids in those programs can lead to really bad results.
I just think for the average kid who'd rather watch fun TV instead of news everyday, we need to use his time in school to install a base of knowledge, and save the exercises for later.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:51 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:That's an evasion, but look up Walter E. Williams for one.
Which academics? I am not familiar.
Now answer the question - do you consider that a suitable assignment?
And, as to the Hoax assignment - would you consider the feelings and/or objections of Jewish parents and students in determining the appropriateness of such an "assignment"?
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:52 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I just think for the average kid who'd rather watch fun TV instead of news everyday, we need to use his time in school to install a base of knowledge, and save the exercises for later.
Anything that can get a student to write in complete sentences serves that purpose.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:55 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Anything that can get a student to write in complete sentences serves that purpose.
Certainly part of a classical education, but at the same time, we want them to write complete sentences filled with substantive things. There are a lot of ways to deviate from boring lessons about the Holocaust, I'm just not sure this is one of the more valuable ones at this point.
Not to mention, is the average 8th grade teacher well equipped to hone the critical thinking and argument skills of the average 8th grader? I think exercises like this need a certain type or level of student, and a certain type of teacher. An exercise like this done poorly will be worthless.
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i could see this being a valuable exercise for upper-level classes for advanced/gifted students. 8th grade? too early
And you can do this type of analytical exercise with just about any topic in History. Why choose something so controversial?
Posted on 5/6/14 at 10:59 am to LSUnKaty
quote:
That's an evasion, but look up Walter E. Williams for one.
Now answer the question - do you consider that a suitable assignment?
Considering how easily some of his statements are debunked, sure.
"The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery couldn't do..." - Walter E Williams
The American legal system didn't even recognize slave families. They were property. Slave families were routinely broken into pieces and sold to different owners. Not to mention the families that were destroyed when they were brought here, and the rape of black slave women, introducing the children of their owners into their 'families' against their will. The suggestion that slavery couldn't destroy black American families is utterly absurd in the face of the evidence.
But that's the key - IN THE FACE OF THE EVIDENCE. In the face of the evidence holocaust denial is absurd and so is the suggestion that slavery was somehow better for blacks. But without evidence you couldn't know that.
If you know nothing - and most 8th graders do - and I ask you if the holocaust happened, the correct answer is that you do not know. You can know this, however, if you go to the fricking library and do a little research (or I guess the kids use the internet tubes now whatever).
This post was edited on 5/6/14 at 11:01 am
Posted on 5/6/14 at 11:04 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Certainly part of a classical education, but at the same time, we want them to write complete sentences filled with substantive things. There are a lot of ways to deviate from boring lessons about the Holocaust, I'm just not sure this is one of the more valuable ones at this point.
Its not really boring.
I've actually found my own investigation of the evidence against denialist arguments to be quite interesting.
Though maybe it would be more interesting to get them to write an essay on the meaning of the opening passage of "A Tale of Two Cities".
Yeah... right.
quote:
Not to mention, is the average 8th grade teacher well equipped to hone the critical thinking and argument skills of the average 8th grader? I think exercises like this need a certain type or level of student, and a certain type of teacher. An exercise like this done poorly will be worthless.
I agree. But those are issues best determined by the school. How do I know if they have the right kind of teacher and the right kind of student?
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