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re: Charles Koch is a Racist who Supports the Police State...Or Not
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:12 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:12 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we hated it long before you had ever heard of it
and now it's sooo mainstream that we just don't even care any more
0
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:13 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
But much more crucially, it favors white over black.
again
blacks on average have less money than whites. it's not a sign that the policy is racist. it's a sign that the groups you're differentiating between have their own cultural traits that impact how the policy affects them
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:14 pm to RogerTheShrubber
I believe this...
explains this...
quote:
it's aggressively policed in areas of higher violence, which is going to be the inner city...which is where you find more minorities
explains this...
quote:
Take for example "stop and frisk". That impacted black people almost exclusively.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:15 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I don't have the numbers on that but I'm sure when it comes to profiling, black people are targeted more often than white people on a per capita basis.
Yes, it's staggering. I think stop-and-frisk was 90% black/brown vs 10% white/other.
And when it comes to profiling, I see people make the circular argument "the cops just go where the crime is". Again, there's MILLIONS of drug crimes going down weekly in white America...they simply are being ignored by the system. IMO, the quickest way to end the drug war would be to start aggressively cracking down on middle-class white kids and young adults. Start raiding all-white high schools and mostly-white colleges and entering EVERY SINGLE ILLEGAL USER into the system. I think the drug war would be gone inside of 5 years.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
it's aggressively policed in areas of higher violence, which is going to be the inner city...which is where you find more minorities
This is a smokescreen and is only partially true.
quote:
violent crime is the main factor in police presence
It's part of it, but not the lion's share.
SFP, I really implore you to read this book I really want to get your opinion on it. It speaks to a lot of the things we are currently discussing and I would value your perspective as an attorney.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:18 pm to La Place Mike
quote:
believe this... quote:it's aggressively policed in areas of higher violence, which is going to be the inner city...which is where you find more minorities explains this... quote:Take for example "stop and frisk". That impacted black people almost exclusively.
Not really. For instance, in Park Slope (Brooklyn), blacks were 24% of the population and 79% of the stops.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
blacks on average have less money than whites.
Any idea why that might be? I would argue that it's:
a)the lasting legacy of housing exclusion
and
b)the legacy of a drug war that has overwhelmingly focused on putting black people into the system...which effectively ends their chances of being productive members of society.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:20 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
IMO, the quickest way to end the drug war would be to start aggressively cracking down on middle-class white kids and young adults. Start raiding all-white high schools and mostly-white colleges and entering EVERY SINGLE ILLEGAL USER into the system. I think the drug war would be gone inside of 5 years.
Absolutely not. My middle class high school had sniffer dogs once a month and it never stopped people from using. The system is fricked because big time dealers can buy protection and the lower level dealers are the ones who get hit the hardest. The best way to end the problem is legalize the stuff.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:21 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
My middle class high school had sniffer dogs once a month and it never stopped people from using.
They aggressively entered kids into the system?
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:22 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:They could have been stopped and frisked in a 100% black neighborhood for all we know.
, blacks were 24% of the population and 79% of the stops.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:25 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:Well. I mean I'm sure what you listed had an effect but let's not pretend the near complete disregard for education in the black community coupled with the rate if women having multiple children by multiple absent fathers aren't huge factors
Any idea why that might be? I would argue that it's
This post was edited on 12/29/14 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:26 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
This is a smokescreen
...what? because you don't agree with it? or because it shatters your argument?
quote:
SFP, I really implore you to read this book
how do you know i haven't?
super liberal guys in my field always send me shite similar to that, also. i know what the arguments are
the biggest failure of the argument is that they presume 1 of 2 things: (1) the "system" purposefully made young black males (YBMs) make bad choices or (2) YBMs made their own decisions but their decisions are no different than middle class white people
the former clients i have who make it after being away from the CJS realize they made a decision based on risk-reward. they enjoyed the rewards but then bitched when the risks were realized. the only way to avoid sliding back is to avoid making bad decisions and living with the effects of prior bad decisions.
this applies to white, black, male, and female.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:28 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Any idea why that might be?
a bunch of reasons. none of which had any reason in the development of the WOD in the 70s and 80s
quote:
b)the legacy of a drug war that has overwhelmingly focused on putting black people into the system...which effectively ends their chances of being productive members of society.
first, many (most?) of the guys who have no chance in normal society cannot be productive members of society for a bunch of reasons, one of which is their criminal record
second, i've already said different cultures will have different outcomes to policy. this is a sad result of the combination of the 2
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:31 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
My middle class high school had sniffer dogs once a month and it never stopped people from using.
They aggressively entered kids into the system?
Not sure what you mean by "aggressively entered" but yes, kids were busted and had records if they had drugs on the school property.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:36 pm to La Place Mike
quote:
They could have been stopped and frisked in a 100% black neighborhood for all we know.
I gave you the Park Slope stats. In THAT specific neighborhood, blacks are 24% of the population and were 79% of the stops. Please try to move beyond your pre-determined talking points and have an open-minded examination of the data.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:41 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
what? because you don't agree with it? or because it shatters your argument?
Because I think the facts demonstrate it isn't true.
quote:
how do you know i haven't?
I don't. I hope you have. I'd like to discuss it.
quote:
the biggest failure of the argument is that they presume 1 of 2 things: (1) the "system" purposefully made young black males (YBMs) make bad choices or (2) YBMs made their own decisions but their decisions are no different than middle class white people
I'm not sure I follow you. But I think you will admit the following is beyond dispute:
a)drug operations are conducted primarily in poor black areas
b)these operations are rewarded/incentivized by cash from the feds
c)con law principles have been thrown to the wind (largely by the SCOTUS) - forfeiture, "consent", etc.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:43 pm to LeonPhelps
The democrats have vilified the Koch brothers so much while taking billions from Soros.
What they are saying when they do this is that they just are not for individual liberty at all. Koch and Paul have warned of the police state forever. Only when they can call the police racists have the democrats even dared criticized their union brothers.
Why are the democrats such proponents of big government? Why do they hate such social classical liberals such as the Kochs?
The Kochs I agree with on essentially every issue. If the only thing I know about an issue and I don't have time to research it is the Kochs support it then I vote for it.
What they are saying when they do this is that they just are not for individual liberty at all. Koch and Paul have warned of the police state forever. Only when they can call the police racists have the democrats even dared criticized their union brothers.
Why are the democrats such proponents of big government? Why do they hate such social classical liberals such as the Kochs?
The Kochs I agree with on essentially every issue. If the only thing I know about an issue and I don't have time to research it is the Kochs support it then I vote for it.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:47 pm to Big Scrub TX
i agree with a-c. that still doesn't make the policy or police racist. the impacts may affect a certain race more harshly, but that's due to a combination of factors (culture, mainly, and its effects on the group)
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:48 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:Ok. I looked up park slope. Wyatt I learned is that it has a pretty darned affluent population with very low crime rate of about 45K. So, I checked and quick look at its crime map shows what little crime takes place there us concentrated. With median home prices around $1.2M and average home prices of $1.8M, a good guess that the crime us concentrated in what little low income are they have. Wanna guess the demographics there?
I gave you the Park Slope stats. In THAT specific neighborhood, blacks are 24% of the population and were 79% of the stops.Please try to move beyond your pre-determined talking points and have an open-minded examination of the data.
Please try to move beyond your pre-determined talking points and have an open-minded examination of the data.
Posted on 12/29/14 at 2:52 pm to SlowFlowPro
People interested in this topic might enjoy reading this book. I haven't had the chance to yet, but I heard him interviewed on the radio and he had some interesting and controversial ideas.
quote:
For twelve years Robert Blecker, a criminal law professor, wandered freely inside Lorton Central Prison, armed only with cigarettes and a tape recorder. The Death of Punishment tests legal philosophy against the reality and wisdom of street criminals and their guards. Some killers’ poignant circumstances should lead us to mercy; others show clearly why they should die. After thousands of hours over twenty-five years inside maximum security prisons and on death rows in seven states, the history and philosophy professor exposes the perversity of justice: Inside prison, ironically, it’s nobody’s job to punish. Thus the worst criminals often live the best lives. The Death of Punishment challenges the reader to refine deeply held beliefs on life and death as punishment that flare up with every news story of a heinous crime. It argues that society must redesign life and death in prison to make the punishment more nearly fit the crime. It closes with the final irony: If we make prison the punishment it should be, we may well abolish the very death penalty justice now requires.
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