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re: Can anyone defend being a libertarian anymore?
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:17 pm to Flats
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:17 pm to Flats
quote:
I think another poster used that particular word, but your claim was that "are only possible under ethno homogeneous conditions". I don't think that's true, mainly because skin color doesn't define culture. It's a predictor, to be sure, but it's not definitive. The more a culture shares values the more liberty they can afford to have.
Why did you go through all of this, and not answer the simple question I gave you?
quote:
what historical example do you have in mind to point to?
0
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:18 pm to Caplewood
quote:
we just need to have a country in Africa that adopts the US constitution in say the late 1800s and they would probably be like a world superpower now
Well played my man
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
After a few generations of bad economic choices,
They shouldn't make bad choices.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I used the same language/criticisms of white pathological culture that I have used on here for 15+ years about black pathological culture and she fricking MELTED down, telling me how shitty of a person I was for being so critical of people who couldn't help it. You switch the races and she sounds like cubbies.
I think they're pretty easily distinguishable in some ways, but I don't know that it matters. What was the point of it?
I still think you'd have a very hard time making the case that say, white Appalachian meth users are akin to black urban gang members in terms of impact on the respective cultures, no?
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:23 pm to OBReb6
I find libertarians generally fine people.
But the Libertarian Party apparatus seems a hollowed out loon driven circus. I always have thought someone else was steering them off the cliffs.
But the Libertarian Party apparatus seems a hollowed out loon driven circus. I always have thought someone else was steering them off the cliffs.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:23 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The real meat is the mass of population who identifies as "small government conservative" who also think "libertarians" means this:
I don’t know what you’re trying to get out of me because I think conservatism is an entirely astroturfed and fake ideology.
quote:
The 2 biggest variables that seem to be common in rejecting legitimate libertarian ideology are: (1) religious fervor and (2) fear (especially of non-white out groups).
Or it could be a recognition of philosophy and political theory that has existed since all the way back to Plato, and seeing the grand liberal project (of which libertarianism is the final distilled form) utterly fail in increasing magnitude over one’s lifetime
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:27 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
That said, how often are the most violent, irresponsible, etc. white people elevated to prominent roles in "white culture"?
We're going to start to see them being more represented just like we are with teen pregnancy rates (while admittedly being much lower than 30-40 years ago in the hell that was the 80s and 90s)
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:28 pm to SlowFlowPro
Other than generalized idiocracy I don't really see any basis for that belief.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Internationally, white culture was a few hundred (a thousand?) years ahead of SSA when they started colonizing the continent.
This assumption hinges on the idea that all humanity is advancing towards a collective ideal culture, of which it is assumed that white western culture was farther along in advancing towards.
There are schools of thought on both the radical right and radical left that reject this, and I am increasingly inclined to entertain such notions as well.
The entirety of what we view as good and proper in our culture are western constructs that may well not be suitable for everyone, and it doesn’t mean it’s superior either.
quote:
Ironically, immigrants from Africa today often reflect pretty "white" culture and are extremely productive citizens that score better in testing than your average white American.
They are productive citizens in a post racial deracinated society that white people built a long time ago and the only recognizable value it has anymore are productivity. That is far flung from thriving in what would have actually been a white culture of the past.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:31 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
If culture extends beyond race, for the purposes of talking about commonality, then would would assume we might find kindred communities out there of different races.
Only if you assume that all societies have gone through the same societal progressions in development. Some cultures were able to do this more quickly when given the values (Asian societies are the best example). Some cultures were not ready in any way for modernity and needed more time to develop.
This isn't just about SSA or indigenous areas elsewhere. The best example historically is Russia, in the explanation of why socialism there became authoritarian communism. It's the same "step skipping" that leads to pathological outcomes, and they've never gotten back on the right track (hence why they're such a lesser culture/country compared to their peers).
You can't skip societal developmental steps. That's the difference in South Korea and North Korea, or Taiwan and mainland China.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:33 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
I think they're pretty easily distinguishable in some ways, but I don't know that it matters. What was the point of it?
The point of my comments or her melt?
quote:
I still think you'd have a very hard time making the case that say, white Appalachian meth users are akin to black urban gang members in terms of impact on the respective cultures, no?
I think white Appalachian meth users and rural black people are much better comparisons and much more comparable as cultures/pathologies.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:34 pm to OBReb6
quote:
I don’t know what you’re trying to get out of me because I think conservatism is an entirely astroturfed and fake ideology.
I know what you believe. I'm talking about the people who identify as "small government conservatives"
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
It's economic forces.
After a few generations of bad economic choices, the same pathological cultures develop.
I’d be more inclined to agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that former Soviet states in Europe have shown greater resistance to cultural rot than some of their western neighbors.
And I know this isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison with what you’re saying, but I think it’s rooted in the same things. The west Germans might have been and still are more economically prosperous, but they are having less children and more demoralized than the East Germans, who also consistently vote most conservatively (which in the case of Germany is most concerned with its future wellbeing).
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:37 pm to OBReb6
quote:
This assumption hinges on the idea that all humanity is advancing towards a collective ideal culture
Not Platonically ideal but the best path we've seen for human development up to this point
quote:
There are schools of thought on both the radical right and radical left that reject this
Yes because those poles promote societal control to control the perceived out group. You can't sell giving the people promoting this ideology power if there isn't something to fear, because that promise of protection (from the out group creating fear) is how all authoritarians justify the need for power over society.
quote:
That is far flung from thriving in what would have actually been a white culture of the past.
Describe this "white culture of the past".
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:39 pm to OBReb6
quote:
They are productive citizens in a post racial deracinated society that white people built a long time ago and the only recognizable value it has anymore are productivity.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:41 pm to OBReb6
quote:
I’d be more inclined to agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that former Soviet states in Europe have shown greater resistance to cultural rot than some of their western neighbors.
The ones who are developing rapidly economically from their Soviet-era existence, often beyond Russia itself?
Just a reminder this is why Russia used a puppet to get Ukraine to reject EU integration and cause the wars or 2014 and 2022.
quote:
The west Germans might have been and still are more economically prosperous, but they are having less children and more demoralized than the East Germans, who also consistently vote most conservatively (which in the case of Germany is most concerned with its future wellbeing).
That's also a function of economic status
And I know people are freaking out over birth rates decliing, but humans evolved because we figure this stuff out. We are like a weed or virus in that we're absurdly stubborn and resiliant.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:42 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Some cultures were able to do this more quickly
Then it stands to reason the for some of the cultures that are slower, they may not be able to do it at all. They may have a lower ceiling than other cultures, and that's ok.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:55 pm to OBReb6
Your argument is similar to saying someone who believes in peacable relations with other countries has to abandon that in the face of the fact that foreign belligerents force us into a standing army.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 3:56 pm to Flats
quote:
Then it stands to reason the for some of the cultures that are slower, they may not be able to do it at all.
That's why you instill the cultures we know are productive.
Some cultures were able to fast-track adoption of Western culture, so there wasn't a real conflict.
When other cultures do conflict, their choice is devolved status/culture or joining the evolved world. Remember, this digression started discussing areas who specifically have not dropped these cultures. I'm not saying all cultures are equal or that they are all compatible with Western culture or anything of the sort, FWIW>
Posted on 2/13/25 at 4:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Not Platonically ideal but the best path we've seen for human development up to this point
This is subjective and is a result of you being so deeply biased to your own culture you cannot see outside of it.
There is no real reason to believe we are any better than the ancient Egyptians, or ancient Chinese dynasties, or the Persian and Assyrian peoples, or even the Greeks and Romans.
The mistake I think we make is seeing ourselves as evolutions out of those cultures, when I think the real story is they were all individual organic cultures that rose and died.
The current west adopted many things from the Greeks and Romans and to a lesser extent the Arabs, but largely it sprang up and developed its own unique ideas and values.
This post was edited on 2/13/25 at 4:02 pm
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