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re: Atlantic op-ed claims Catholic rosary has become ‘an extremist symbol’
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:35 pm to Revelator
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:35 pm to Revelator
quote:
You seem to be implying that a divorced person can’t be saved?
Again, I don't judge, but you do! You have said numerous times, if it is in the Bible there is no wiggle room. I believe God forgives us all, the best of us, the ones who don't know about his love, and the worse of us.
You are the damnation guy, not our faith!
2
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:36 pm to FooManChoo
quote:I'm claiming that it took the church decades to figure out what they believed about Jesus, and in some instances (the Trinity, for example) it took them centuries.
Are you claiming that John isn't inspired scripture, but a later invention of men?
John is a snapshot of where some in the Christian community were doctrinally at the end of the 1st century
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:37 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. Most of our knowledge of hell comes directly from Jesus' words.
Again, I don't judge, but you do! You have said numerous times, if it is in the Bible there is no wiggle room. I believe God forgives us all, the best of us, the ones who don't know about his love, and the worse of us.
You are the damnation guy, not our faith!
Do you find that troubling?
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Probably true. And whom did he say is going there?
Jesus talked more about hell than heaven
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:41 pm to gaetti15
quote:
However, there are degrees of sin. Venial and mortal
Another manmade Catholic teaching with no scriptural weight
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:41 pm to Frank Black
quote:By implication, you are saying that John is not divine scripture, but someone's interpretation of divine scripture (or revealed doctrine) that was a snapshot in history rather than the very revelation from God. It seems your defense is that we can't trust John to be relating an accurate doctrine because he was simply working things out like the rest of the early church. Is that not what you're saying?
I'm claiming that it took the church decades to figure out what they believed about Jesus, and in some instances (the Trinity, for example) it took them centuries.
John is a snapshot of where some in the Christian community were doctrinally at the end of the 1st century
You also didn't address the other passages that speak to the same understanding that John conveys in his gospel. Are we dead in sin and in need of being brought to life by God as Paul writes? Are we in need of being born again as Peter writes (along with John and Paul to Titus)?
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:41 pm to Frank Black
quote:Those who do not believe in Him. Those who are not His sheep.
Probably true. And whom did he say is going there?
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 2:44 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:48 pm to Frank Black
quote:
The fact remains, that when asked directly how to inherit eternal life, Jesus answered directly that the man was to keep the commandments. Everything else you say is just noise
Jesus also said a man should pluck out his eye if it causes him to sin and a man should love him above all others and hate his mother and father. Do you really think Jesus meant we should really hate or mother and father when one of the commandments is to honor or father and mother?
I have a simple question for you. If Jesus really believed that all the rich man had to do to gain eternal life was keep the commandments, why didn’t Jesus simply say to him, you are good, when the man said he had kept them?
Secondly, if all one has to do is follow the commandments to be saved, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:49 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:
Again, I don't judge, but you do! You have said numerous times, if it is in the Bible there is no wiggle room. I believe God forgives us all, the best of us, the ones who don't know about his love, and the worse of us.
You are conflating two separate issues. One is, what it takes to be saved. The second is, what should we do to live a godly life.
One is salvation related and the other is a sanctification related
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:49 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Yes, that is what I'm saying. The early church was just as confused as we are today about who and what Jesus was. A good example of this is to compare the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. Both written in the 4th century, they present two very different understandings of who Jesus was
It seems your defense is that we can't trust John to be relating an accurate doctrine because he was simply working things out like the rest of the early church. Is that not what you're saying?
quote:All of Paul's epistles were written decades before "John" wrote his gospel. Paul's version of Christianity, which he claims to have received not from man (ie the apostles), but in a vision from Jesus, was clearly ascending by the end of the 1st century. Therefore John, and to a lesser extent, the Synoptics, were highly influenced by Paul's theology. And of course Christianity today is essentially the theology of Paul and the theology of the Gospel of John
You also didn't address the other passages that speak to the same understanding that John conveys in his gospel. Are we dead in sin and in need of being brought to life by God as Paul writes? Are we in need of being born again as Peter writes (along with John and Paul to Titus)?
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:51 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. Most of our knowledge of hell comes directly from Jesus' words.
Do you find that troubling?
I certainly find Hell troubling. Assuming it actually exists, which I suspect it does, I imagine it as something like a physical trait, like light and dark or magnetic repulsion. A fundamental (spiritual-edited) property that must exist within the realm of God and cannot be changed. And I do see it primarily as separation from God. A person cannot bring themselves before God due to shame or some other sort of obstacle which cannot be breached. Thus the loss of the holy spirit and all that is good and nothing left but despair. How is that for a nightmare.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 3:23 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:51 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
It seems your defense is that we can't trust John to be relating an accurate doctrine because he was simply working things out like the rest of the early church
Many Catholics also dismiss or diminish the writings of Paul as well. Get rid of the writings of Paul and John and the New Testament really shrinks.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:53 pm to Frank Black
quote:If you don't believe the NT is scripture but a collection of writings of men that were either very confused or ignorant of the truth and that they were working things out for themselves, then there is no point in continuing this discussion with you as you are not a Christian and I pray that you will repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ, the son of God.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. The early church was just as confused as we are today about who and what Jesus was. A good example of this is to compare the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. Both written in the 4th century, they present two very different understandings of who Jesus was
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:55 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Probably true. And whom did he say is going there?
Those who do not believe in Him. Those who are not His sheep.
Matthew 25:31-46:
quote:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:55 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:
I believe God forgives us all, the best of us, the ones who don't know about his love, and the worse of us.
I would like to believe that as well but I have yet to find support within the Bible. There is some implied subjective support within the Near Death Experience and there may be some philosophical arguments but I have yet to hear a solid argument.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:56 pm to Revelator
quote:
Another manmade Catholic teaching with no scriptural weight
1 John 5:16-17
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:57 pm to Revelator
quote:
Another manmade Catholic teaching with no scriptural weight
Not at all. The Bible does refer to degrees of sin. It's there for you to find it.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:59 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:The scriptures describe hell as a place of torment; fire and darkness. It isn't a place where God is absent (God is omnipresent), but where His mercy is absent and His wrath is poured out on the inhabitants of hell for eternity. That is a troubling picture, indeed.
I certainly find Hell troubling. Assuming it actually exists, which I suspect it does, I imagine it as something like a physical trait, like light and dark or magnetic repulsion. A fundamental property that must exist within the realm of God and cannot be changed. And I do see it primarily as separation from God. A person cannot bring themselves before God due to shame or some other sort of obstacle which cannot be breached. Thus the loss of the holy spirit and all that is good and nothing left but despair. How is that for a nightmare.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 3:03 pm to gaetti15
quote:
1 John 5:16-17
This I think is alluding to the blasphemy of the Holy Sprit which is classified as an unforgivable sin, and I should have included that caveat in my initial post.
I was alluding to a system that ranks sins and then offers an equal penance. Such as, I stole some gum,” say five Hail Mary’s.
I killed someone,” get a good lawyer!”
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 3:06 pm to Revelator
quote:
Jesus also said a man should pluck out his eye if it causes him to sin and a man should love him above all others and hate his mother and father. Do you really think Jesus meant we should really hate or mother and father when one of the commandments is to honor or father and mother?
I have a simple question for you. If Jesus really believed that all the rich man had to do to gain eternal life was keep the commandments, why didn’t Jesus simply say to him, you are good, when the man said he had kept them?
Secondly, if all one has to do is follow the commandments to be saved, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
Jesus was a 1st century Jew. Ask a 1st century Jew how to be saved, and he'd answer, saved from what? Jews today would give the same answer btw. There is no concept of original sin. There is no concept of God not being able to forgive us except by a blood atonement (Old Testament sin offerings were in fact purification offerings for priests who were to enter the temple, perhaps having sinned unknowingly). And there certainly is no concept that a sinner can be forgiven by a righteous person dying in his stead.
Jesus didn't have to die on the cross. He did, however, die on the cross and his followers debated for decades what to make of that. At the end of the day Paul's interpretation of the death of Jesus, an interpretation which came not from the apostles who actually heard Jesus teach, but in a mystical vision, carried the day and the death of Jesus came to be seen as a foreordained sacrifice for the sins of the world (or the elect, if you are a Calvinist). That, along with the church's teachings on the Trinity is what ensured that Christianity would be a predominantly Gentile religion. The religion became unpalatable to Jews and a contradiction of God's revelation of Himself in the Hebrew scriptures
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 3:09 pm
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