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re: Atlantic op-ed claims Catholic rosary has become ‘an extremist symbol’
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:28 pm to Beauw
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:28 pm to Beauw
This thread saddens me. Somewhere, Satan is laughing. He truly is succeeding in his mission; Christians more concerned with fighting amongst each other than fighting him and his influence in this world.
Now, I am by no means an adherent of "no creed but Christ" (which is, ironically enough, itself a creed). I am a practicing Catholic. But I have been around the block enough times to know that we face far graver enemies in this world than each other.
I see a society where many, many - far too many - of our young men have fallen captive to the slavery of pornography addiction and video game addiction, content to live their lives in dark, apathetic solitude; "happy" as long as their supply of alcohol and entertainment keeps flowing.
I see a society where many of our daughters are being taught to dress like prostitutes and whore themselves out on social media so they can glean the "likes" and approval of people whose opinions and praises are just as false and empty as the void which these young women are trying to fill in their souls.
I see people abandoning the faith in droves. I've been in the sanctuaries of several different denominations over the past few years - Catholic, Episcopalian, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Baptist - whose pews were all filled with good, God fearing individuals...with grey hair. Seeing someone under the age of 40 in church is a rarity these days. Young men are particularly absent. If I see a young person in a church these days, there's about a 75% chance it's a woman.
I see materialism, narcissism, sexual depravity, violence, and nihilism running rampant and ravaging our society, tearing it apart at the very roots; the family.
We have so much in common at the crux of our Christian faith: One supreme and trinitarian God and his everlasting love...Jesus Christ and The Way of the Cross...self-denial and sacrifice...the beauty of God's creation...the practice of spiritual warfare against the temptations and snares of the devil...
...But we are apparently more concerned about the technicalities of how we should pray. As far as I'm aware, all Christian denominations pray The Lord's Prayer which Jesus gave us, so I think we're all on the same general page in that regard.
Sometimes I wonder if many of us, myself included, lack the courage to go forth and do Christ's real mission and would rather restrict the practice of our evangelism to inter-denominational dick measuring contests.
Let us pray for each other, brothers and sisters; for that is probably the only work towards inter-denominational reconciliation which will ever do any good. Then let us turn our eyes and hearts outwards into the darkness which is pressing in our upon our churches from every direction.
Now, I am by no means an adherent of "no creed but Christ" (which is, ironically enough, itself a creed). I am a practicing Catholic. But I have been around the block enough times to know that we face far graver enemies in this world than each other.
I see a society where many, many - far too many - of our young men have fallen captive to the slavery of pornography addiction and video game addiction, content to live their lives in dark, apathetic solitude; "happy" as long as their supply of alcohol and entertainment keeps flowing.
I see a society where many of our daughters are being taught to dress like prostitutes and whore themselves out on social media so they can glean the "likes" and approval of people whose opinions and praises are just as false and empty as the void which these young women are trying to fill in their souls.
I see people abandoning the faith in droves. I've been in the sanctuaries of several different denominations over the past few years - Catholic, Episcopalian, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Baptist - whose pews were all filled with good, God fearing individuals...with grey hair. Seeing someone under the age of 40 in church is a rarity these days. Young men are particularly absent. If I see a young person in a church these days, there's about a 75% chance it's a woman.
I see materialism, narcissism, sexual depravity, violence, and nihilism running rampant and ravaging our society, tearing it apart at the very roots; the family.
We have so much in common at the crux of our Christian faith: One supreme and trinitarian God and his everlasting love...Jesus Christ and The Way of the Cross...self-denial and sacrifice...the beauty of God's creation...the practice of spiritual warfare against the temptations and snares of the devil...
...But we are apparently more concerned about the technicalities of how we should pray. As far as I'm aware, all Christian denominations pray The Lord's Prayer which Jesus gave us, so I think we're all on the same general page in that regard.
Sometimes I wonder if many of us, myself included, lack the courage to go forth and do Christ's real mission and would rather restrict the practice of our evangelism to inter-denominational dick measuring contests.
Let us pray for each other, brothers and sisters; for that is probably the only work towards inter-denominational reconciliation which will ever do any good. Then let us turn our eyes and hearts outwards into the darkness which is pressing in our upon our churches from every direction.
2
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:32 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:This is following after the words of Christ, who said, "do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." (John 7:24).
That is a perfect example of the judgement of others by your faith!
Jesus, Himself, said: "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matt. 7:13-14)
Jesus is saying that few find eternal life. What you are saying is that almost everyone who has ever lived has eternal life because they have died in ignorance of the gospel message. What you believe is at odds with the clear teachings of scripture.
quote:When we preach the gospel, we are making a judgement about someone's faith. We are saying that what they believe is wrong and insufficient to save them from eternal destruction. We preach the gospel--and by necessity condemn the false beliefs of those who we preach to--in order to save souls. You cannot tell someone that they need to abandon their way of life and follow Christ without condemning (judging) their way of life.
As I stated, I can't judge anyone's faith or religion, Jesus asked that I don't do it and I won't.
quote:God is love, but He is also holy and just. You cannot separate His justice from His love.
I have been taught that God is loving
quote:All people are made in God's image and belong to Him, but not everyone is a "child of God" in the sense that Christians are when we are adopted into the family of God by faith. We are sons and daughters of the promises of God through our unity with Christ by faith. Jesus made a clear distinction between sheep and goats, and those that belong to Him are His sheep, while those who do not are goats, who will be destroyed. To classify all people--Christians and non-Christians alike--as being in the same relationship with God is to make a mockery of the concept of the Church, who is the bride of Christ. Jesus has only one bride, and it does not consist of those who die in unbelief in His death.
and that every person on this planet is a child of God
quote:Yes, I do, because the Bible teaches as much.
do you really believe that this loving and caring God would condemn people to damnation even though they don't have access to the teachings of Christ?
quote:It is not cruel and merciless for God to condemn His enemies who are by nature vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Eph. 2:3; Rom. 9:22). It is not cruel for God, the holy and just creator of all things, to condemn rebels who have broken His law. All sin and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and thus all are guilty. Christ came to pay the price of sin for those who trust in Him. Those who do not trust in Him are still in their sins, and thus, are condemned.
That a cruel and merciless God, we are not taught that God is like that.
What you assume is that God owes all people eternal life, and therefore, if God doesn't grant it to any, that He is cruel and merciless. That's a false assumption. God is holy and we are not. We break God's law and are guilty before Him. We are owed eternal death for our sins, not eternal life. Therefore, if there is unfairness, it is that any are saved, because none deserve it.
I think you should read through the book of Romans again. Paul answers this very concern in Romans 9.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:40 pm to Revelator
quote:
While the things you listed could be viewed as wrong, none of it has anything to do with salvation.
FYI, there was real slavery in biblical times, but more than likely, the servants Paul is talking about in scripture is speaking about indentured servants . These are people who voluntarily signed a contract to work off a debt they couldn’t repay.
Adultery is one of the Ten Commandments, God gave us those and was pretty clear about what would happen if you broke his commandments! Back to your point, if it is in the Bible it must be followed to the exact wording, no changing the teaching to fit your liking.
So, even though Paul says "slaves" he really didn't mean it? Is that what you are saying? When did you earn the right to translate what the Bible says?
See you can't pick and choose what "you" think is right and then criticize others for their beliefs. You didn't answer my question about your wife!
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:42 pm to UGATiger26
While I share much of the sentient shared in your post, preaching sound biblical doctrine is more important than you make it out to be.
It’s more than simple belief, it’s certainly more than being a member of a church. It’s more than merely saying one believes in God.
The Bible says the devils believe and tremble, but their belief isn’t sufficient to save them.
As I posted in a earlier post, Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin and a Pharisee, a highly religious man came to Jesus by night inquiring how to inherit eternal life.
If being good and pious alone were enough to garner someone eternal life, Jesus would have simply told Nicodemus to keep doing what he was doing. Instead he told him,” unless you are born again, you will never see the kingdom of God .” That’s an amazingly direct and stark statement.
If we could all just simply believe, and If all paths led to eternal life, we could all skip debates like this and embrace your words.
The Bible speaks explicitly about false teachers and false doctrines. In fact it says they will look godly, but they don’t have any spiritual power. In other words, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
God Bless.
It’s more than simple belief, it’s certainly more than being a member of a church. It’s more than merely saying one believes in God.
The Bible says the devils believe and tremble, but their belief isn’t sufficient to save them.
As I posted in a earlier post, Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin and a Pharisee, a highly religious man came to Jesus by night inquiring how to inherit eternal life.
If being good and pious alone were enough to garner someone eternal life, Jesus would have simply told Nicodemus to keep doing what he was doing. Instead he told him,” unless you are born again, you will never see the kingdom of God .” That’s an amazingly direct and stark statement.
If we could all just simply believe, and If all paths led to eternal life, we could all skip debates like this and embrace your words.
The Bible speaks explicitly about false teachers and false doctrines. In fact it says they will look godly, but they don’t have any spiritual power. In other words, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
God Bless.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:46 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:
Adultery is one of the Ten Commandments, God gave us those and was pretty clear about what would happen if you broke his commandments! Back to your point, if it is in the Bible it must be followed to the exact wording, no changing the teaching to fit your liking.
First no one can keep the 10 commandments faithfully. The Bible says the Law was given not to make us righteous, but instead, reveal our unrighteousness. Never the less, we are no longer under the law but under grace.
quote:
So, even though Paul says "slaves" he really didn't mean it? Is that what you are saying? When did you earn the right to translate what the Bible says?
The Bible was written is Hebrew or Greek and the translator chooses a word that best fits the passage. If you look at a word study of when the word slave is used, and understand the historical context of the times, you can get a better understanding of the passages.
quote:
You didn't answer my question about your wife!
When a man his doing his part, loving his wife like Christ loved the church, he won’t have to tell her to submit, she will be willing do her part to be what God called her to be.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:49 pm to Revelator
faith without works is a dead faith.
intercession is not the same a beholding to false idols
The Bible is the word of God, but so are the Traditions held by the Catholic Church (because before there was a Bible there was an oral tradition).
Probably a couple other things I can mention that could keep this thread going, but those should suffice for now
intercession is not the same a beholding to false idols
The Bible is the word of God, but so are the Traditions held by the Catholic Church (because before there was a Bible there was an oral tradition).
Probably a couple other things I can mention that could keep this thread going, but those should suffice for now
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:51 pm to Revelator
quote:Yet there's not one other story in the NT that teaches that POV. And it's in John, among the very latest books in the NT to be written. Clearly the Christian message was evolving by then to a highly spiritualized interpretation of the life of Jesus, given that the generation who heard him teach had died and his prophecies about the coming Kingdom of God had not come to fruition
As I posted in a earlier post, Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin and a Pharisee, a highly religious man came to Jesus by night inquiring how to inherit eternal life.
If being good and holy alone were enough to garner someone eternal life, Jesus would have simply told Nicodemus to keep doing what he was doing. Instead he told him,” unless you are born again, you will never see the kingdom of God .” That’s an amazingly direct and stark statemet
By contrast, in the much earlier gospel of Mark (also in the likewise earlier Matthew and Luke) Jesus told another man, in reply to his question of how to have eternal life, to keep the commandments
Mark 10:17-22: "As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not cheat others, honor your father and mother.’” 20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.” 21Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” 22But the man was saddened by these words and went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth."
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:56 pm to Revelator
quote:
First no one can keep the 10 commandments faithfully. The Bible says the Law was given not to make us righteous, but instead, reveal our unrighteousness. Never the less, we are no longer under the law but under grace
But, but, but, but the Bible says you shouldn't divorce. To condone divorce is going against what it tells us, so even if you condone it you are sinful. At least that is what you have been saying all day!
Again, but but the Bible is very clear about slaves. You can't say Paul's words are wrong just because you don't believe it. If you follow the Bible without some sort of interpretation, you believe in slavery, just be kind to them.
I want to tell your wife she is to be obey you and get back to tomorrow!
Posted on 8/22/22 at 1:56 pm to gaetti15
quote:
faith without works is a dead faith
I agree that a real and genuine faith will produce good works, but it’s not the works that saves a person.
quote:
Intercession isn’t the same as beholding to idols
Intercession is fine and long as your intercessory prayer is offered through Jesus Christ
quote:
The Bible is the word of God, but so are the traditions held by the Catholic Church
No, the Bible is the inspired word of God and can’t be compared to the traditions of men, nor does it hold the same weight.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:00 pm to Frank Black
quote:
Mark 10:17-22: "As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. “Good Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not cheat others, honor your father and mother.’” 20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.” 21Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.” 22But the man was saddened by these words and went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth."
The story here actually makes my point and not yours. Jesus wanted to reveal the man’s heart and what he really trusted in. So, he asked him if he kept the commandments and the man said he kept all of them. Then Jesus told him to sell all he had and follow him, which the man was unwilling to do.
Jesus expects us to forsake all to follow him and it’s not simply about following laws or commandments.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:04 pm to Revelator
quote:
If being good and pious alone were enough to garner someone eternal life, Jesus would have simply told Nicodemus to keep doing what he was doing. Instead he told him,” unless you are born again, you will never see the kingdom of God .” That’s an amazingly direct and stark statement.
A prisoner condemned to die (deservedly by his own admission) on a cross adjacent to Jesus was promised paradise because he showed faith in Jesus in those last hours of his life. The prisoner's sins must have been great to end up on the cross and yet Jesus ignored the sins and accepted him.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:05 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:
But, but, but, but the Bible says you shouldn't divorce. To condone divorce is going against what it tells us, so even if you condone it you are sinful. At least that is what you have been saying all day!
Sure God’s plan for us is to have one wife for life, but that’s not always how it works out. You seem to be implying that a divorced person can’t be saved? What about any of the other commandments if they are broken? Jesus said if we look upon a woman with lust, we have committed adultery in our hearts. What man hasn’t done this? Are they all doomed to Hell?
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:08 pm to Tigers2010a
quote:
A prisoner condemned to die (deservedly by his own admission) on a cross adjacent to Jesus was promised paradise because he showed faith in Jesus in those last hours of his life. The prisoner's sins must have been great to end up on the cross and yet Jesus accepted him.
Yes because the thief on the cross acknowledged his own sinfulness and asked Jesus to save him. That’s what all of us are called to do.
This post was edited on 8/22/22 at 2:16 pm
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:14 pm to Revelator
quote:
Jesus said if we look upon a woman with lust, we have committed adultery in our hearts. What man hasn’t done this? Are they all doomed to Hell?
that's what the sacrament of penance is for
He also went on a pretty long spiel about divorce in Matthew. Seemed like he was pretty direct in his language about it too.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:15 pm to Revelator
quote:
A prisoner condemned to die (deservedly by his own admission) on a cross adjacent to Jesus was promised paradise because he showed faith in Jesus in those last hours of his life. The prisoner's sins must have been great to end up on the cross and yet Jesus accepted him.
example of perfect contrition.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:16 pm to BamaMamaof2
quote:
Again, but but the Bible is very clear about slaves. You can't say Paul's words are wrong just because you don't believe it. If you follow the Bible without some sort of interpretation, you believe in slavery, just be kind to them.
Paul was acknowledging the realities of the day. Some believers were in actual slavery and that was their lot. But Paul, like Jesus realized that our present worldly situation is temporary and their focus was on the spiritual which last for an eternity. So instead of telling the slave to focus on his condition, he instead taught them how a Christian should conduct himself in all situations.
Paul was locked up in chains and a prisoner, but this didn’t stop him from following Christ or praising him.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:18 pm to Frank Black
quote:Are you claiming that John isn't inspired scripture, but a later invention of men? This concept of being "born again" is not unique to John. That phrase is repeated in 1 Pet. 1:3, and verses 23-25. And in Titus 3:5, we are told that we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
Yet there's not one other story in the NT that teaches that POV. And it's in John, among the very latest books in the NT to be written. Clearly the Christian message was evolving by then to a highly spiritualized interpretation of the life of Jesus, given that the generation who heard him teach had died and his prophecies about the coming Kingdom of God had not come to fruition
The message conveys an inability to believe by one's own efforts and that he must be made capable by the work of the Spirit. Another picture is used elsewhere: death.
Eph. 2:1 says we were dead in our sins.
Eph. 2:4-5 says we were dead in our sins and made alive by God's grace.
And
Col. 2:13 says we were dead and made alive by Christ.
I could go on and on, but there is ample support for God's monergistic work in salvation.
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:21 pm to gaetti15
quote:
He also went on a pretty long spiel about divorce in Matthew. Seemed like he was pretty direct in his language about it too.
You seem to be hung up on divorce more than any other sin as if there are degrees of sin. All sin separates us from God and Jesus died for all sin.
I think your fascination with divorce is a Catholic thing.
I’ve seen ID shows where a Catholic person feared divorcing their spouse because of Catholic teachings, so they murdered them instead!
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:24 pm to Revelator
quote:
You seem to be hung up on divorce more than any other sin as if there are degrees of sin. All sin separates us from God and Jesus died for all sin.
I think your fascination with divorce is a Catholic thing.
somebody else brought that up not me. I'm just pointing out that the verses in Matthew about divorce are pretty non-vague.
However, there are degrees of sin. Venial and mortal
Posted on 8/22/22 at 2:32 pm to Revelator
quote:I'm familiar with the Protestant interpretation of the passage. It's laughably misguided exegesis. In one passage (John 3) you take Jesus at face value. In Mark 10, because Jesus doesn't agree with your doctrine, you find it necessary to apply a "hidden" meaning to Jesus' words.
The story here actually makes my point and not yours. Jesus wanted to reveal the man’s heart and what he really trusted in. So, he asked him if he kept the commandments and the man said he kept all of them. Then Jesus told him to sell all he had and follow him, which the man was unwilling to do.
Jesus expects us to forsake all to follow him and it’s not simply about following laws or commandments.
The fact remains, that when asked directly how to inherit eternal life, Jesus answered directly that the man was to keep the commandments. Everything else you say is just noise
And fwiw, selling all you have is not a commandment. I'm quite certain, for example, that you haven't done that
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