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Message
re: Are we sure optometrists should do eye surgery w/o going to medical school?
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:16 pm to onmymedicalgrind
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:16 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Whats vague about it?
yours was more emotionally loaded, to me.
quote:
Would you want someone operating on your eye who has not been adequately trained to do so?
no. but i'm having doubt about who gets to determine what's adequate, and if it truly is in some cases, like this one.
quote:
You want me to produce data that those who have their surgeries performed by optometrists have worse outcomes when compared to surgeries performed by ophthalmologists?
that's fair, isn't it?
quote:
Well theres a reason that data doesn't exist....
i thought i read in here that a few states had done the same thing?
This post was edited on 5/15/14 at 6:18 pm
1
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:16 pm to Scruffy
quote:
So, doctors should receive less training than they already receive? Is that your argument? Doctors may have to undergo too much training?
the frick? no!
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:18 pm to 90proofprofessional
(no message)
This post was edited on 3/18/15 at 7:35 pm
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:21 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
no. but i'm having doubt about who gets to determine what's adequate, and if it truly is in some cases, like this one.
Well what do you know, specifically, about the difference in what it takes to become an optometrist and what it takes to become an ophthalmologist and why one can do surgeries and why the other, currently, can not? This is key here.
quote:
i thought i read in here that a few states had done the same thing?
Well I am a strong supporter of evidence based medicine. If theres data out there, I'd love to take a look at it. I'll go do some pubmeding in a bit.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:25 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Then explain this. Are you not saying that the current level of training required to be a practicing/licensed physician may be "drastic overkill"?
read it in context. we were talking about what training was required for the procedures this bill allows optometrists to perform
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:28 pm to 90proofprofessional
(no message)
This post was edited on 3/18/15 at 7:35 pm
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:29 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Well what do you know, specifically, about the difference in what it takes to become an optometrist and what it takes to become an ophthalmologist and why one can do surgeries and why the other, currently, can not? This is key here.
not much more than your typical dude. i did have lasik, and i paid out of pocket. so i went mega-premium, and that was my choice. more options would have been nothing but welcome for me.
why is knowing all the specifics of their training key though?
quote:
I'll go do some pubmeding in a bit.
real life outcome data might in fact prove me naive about this, admittedly, and i haven't even searched for it. i just really feel like i'm seeing rent-seekers rent-seeking here
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:30 pm to Scruffy
quote:
Why would you want a physician who was performing surgery to have less training?
you can expect the better-trained and experienced to cost more, all things equal. if i'm footing the bill, the added benefit may not justify the extra cost in all cases.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:33 pm to jamarkus
Wait til your insurance provider tells you they'll only pay for an optometrist to do the surgery.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:37 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
you can expect the better-trained and experienced to cost more, all things equal. if i'm footing the bill, the added benefit may not justify the extra cost in all cases.
Sure, and this is totally legit. But there should be some bare minimum level of competence assured before someone can be allowed to poke stuff and suture stuff in my eyeball. Thats what licensure is for.
Now within that, if you don't want to shell out top $$ to be operated on by a nationally recognized ophthalmologist and instead opt for a cheaper rural ophthalmologist, thats totally your choice. But these people should always be adequately trained.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:37 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
10-0
quote:Keep in mind, few here know what that is.
onmymedicalgrind
For those who don't know what 10-0 means, envision sewing two slivers of jello together with spiderweb.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:39 pm to NC_Tigah
(no message)
This post was edited on 3/18/15 at 7:36 pm
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:40 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
why is knowing all the specifics of their training key though?
Because it highlights why people like myself are hesitant/against letting optometrist perform surgeries meant for board certified ophthalmologists.
quote:
real life outcome data might in fact prove me naive about this, admittedly, and i haven't even searched for it.
Tried searching for a little bit, and wasn't able to find much.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:41 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
For those who don't know what 10-0 means, envision sewing two slivers of jello together with spiderweb.
given the current crowd here, i'm assuming you mean me
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:42 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Tried searching for a little bit, and wasn't able to find much.
i do appreciate the look, as i assume you'd know where to look in the literature much better than i would. if you find something i'll read it
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:43 pm to Scruffy
quote:
It is an amazingly skilled thing to watch.
Yea, I want to do surgery, but I without a doubt do not have the hand skill to do that type of surgery. Very impressive, though.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:50 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:0.3
the bad outcome happens in your scenario with a probability of 1
quote:Sorry, I have no idea what the "SB/HB Proposal" is.
the risk being brought on by the SB/HB's proposal
quote:0.00000.000.0000. Got it?
i'm asking about the incentives of those who get to decide what is "necessary"
quote:Good God Almighty, 90pp, are you trolling at this point. Because that point is so far beneath your norm, I don't know how to interpret it.
these two comments are obtuse to the point of silliness.
quote:I have no idea. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Ziltch.
it is costlier to obtain certification as an ophthalmologist, no?
Nor do i give a sh*t!
I will guarantee private school undergrad plus private optometry is far more expensive than state college f/u'd w/ state med school. So I do not get your question at all.
Posted on 5/15/14 at 6:57 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
i do appreciate the look, as i assume you'd know where to look in the literature much better than i would. if you find something i'll read it
Yea I still couldn't find much.
But my overall point is simple: ophthos go though a certain level of training, not just in specific type of eye operations, but also general principles of surgery. These residents are directly observed, one-on-one for 80 hrs/week for 5 years doing a myriad of operations on a myriad of patients before they are ever allowed to do anything alone. One slip up and someones vision can be permanently lost. Do we really want to cut corners with this?
Posted on 5/15/14 at 7:01 pm to 90proofprofessional
quote:
Well what do you know, specifically, about the difference in what it takes to become an optometrist and what it takes to become an ophthalmologist
quote:Interesting. Americans Think They're Smarter Than Average. Just a thought.
not much more than your typical dude
Posted on 5/15/14 at 7:04 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
One slip up and someones vision can be permanently lost. Do we really want to cut corners with this?
i do understand that the magnitude of the potential damage is huge for sure, and it would be stupid to ignore that fact. and obviously, i'd expect an optometrist to be more likely to make such a mistake (although the number of such mistakes by ophthalmologists is also likely to be nonzero, btw). i'd expect such mistakes to be vanishingly small for both.
my point is just that the real-world increase in probability of such a slip up may be extremely small, and that the severity & probability of the damage must be weighed against the potential savings, imo
This post was edited on 5/15/14 at 7:07 pm
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