re: Actor Shia LeBeouf converts to Catholicism

FooManChoo

With all due respect, Catholicism is one of the most misunderstood religions. I know there's a lot of bad clergy in the church but there's a lot more good. You would be surprised how much we believe in much of the same things. It's probably some of the few things that we disagree on that has you stumped.

This is why I believe in “Mere Christianity” non-denominationalism more than calling myself Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran etc. it’s all a waste of time.

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I love when Protestants can’t help it and show their true hypocritical side when it comes to Catholics.

Same old tired refrain. One of the foundations of Protestantism. The only way they can be “right” is if Catholicism is wrong and evil.

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Like I've said, I'm not concerned about a tribalistic "my team is best" argument. I honestly don't care about that one bit. My concern is for the salvation of others, and I don't believe that salvation exists for those who add to Christ's work on the cross.

Believe it or not, my complaints arise from a concern for the souls of others, not because I want to be right and want others to be wrong.

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Maybe he read somewhere that faith without works is dead.

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That shouldn't turn anyone to Catholicism by itself. Protestants believe that, too. I believe that. It just doesn't mean that faith + works = justification, like Rome thinks.

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Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Never mind, I know you haven't because if you had you would know that during every Mass the Gospel is read and the Priest then gives his Homily based on the reading.

So to say Catholicism doesn't teach the gospel is you get being ignorant.

Today, as every day, there will be 3 reading,
1st is Corinthians 1:17-25
2nd Is Psalms 33:1-2, 10-11
3rd is the Gospel of Matthew 25:1-13

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I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that the gospel is what Jesus has done for us. What Rome teaches is that what Christ did was a good start, but we have to provide something else on top of what Christ has done before we can be justified. That isn't the gospel.

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faith + works = justification, like Rome thinks.

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That's a common misconception, but that is not what the Church teaches. It teaches that through Grace we are saved, and because of our faith and justification in that, good works flow through us. Just like you believe if I'm not mistaken.

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Not praying to them, asking for intercession

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How does one ask for intercession from a dead person? Prayer? And if prayer, do you pray to the person you are asking for intercession from?

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no different than asking someone to pray for you just asking someone who is closer to God.

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It's very different.

First, we're commanded to pray for one another, not pray to one another (prayer is a religious act of worship reserved for God).

Second, the command to pray for one another is a command to the living, not the dead. Christians are commanded to do all sorts of things while alive that make no sense when dead.

Third, we already have direct access to the Father through Jesus. The Father is omnipresent and we cannot be closer to Him than we are right now, because He's here. Yet, we have but one mediator with the Father, and that's Jesus. We pray to the Father through the son because He is our mediator and you cannot get closer to God than through Jesus.

*ETA*
We are also indwelled by the Spirit. That's pretty close to God, if I say so myself

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You know like Jesus did during the transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.

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The transfiguration does not inform us of our responsibility to pray for one another, nor does it negate Christ as our mediator before God, nor does it teach that God listens to the intercession of the dead with greater attentiveness than the living due to their proximity.

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Rev 8:4

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This passage (vv 1-5) does not demonstrate that intercessory prayers to the dead in Heaven are then given to God. It can mean either that the dead Christians who were martyred for their unity with Christ from chapter 6 are having their petitions of judgment and retribution answered (since immediately following the prayers is judgement), or it could mean that the prayers of all Christians (while alive) are given to God. It's an assumption that Catholics make that "the saints" must be highly exalted Christians who were given a special status by Rome, and thus are more holy and worthy of the Father's ear in Heaven, are the recipients of the prayers of the living and then intercede with God on our behalf.

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Luke 16:22-24 shows that the dead can pray for the living

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No it doesn't.

First, this was a parable, which cannot use to contradict clear teachings of mediation.

Second, in the parable, no prayer was offered. The dead speak to each other like the living speak to each other. There is no hint that the living can talk to the dead, or that the dead are even capable of hearing the living under normal circumstances. The rich man wasn't hearing new prayers from his family and interceding for them; he was taking his prior knowledge about his family and talking to Abraham.

Third, the petition that was made by the rich man was not made to God, but to Abraham, who didn't take the petition to Mary, Jesus, the Father, or anyone else. Abraham, by himself, rejected the petition based on the truth of God's Word.

Fourth, even though a petition was made to Abraham, it was absolutely rejected. The request to send Lazarus to the rich man's brothers was rejected and he was told that if they have God's Word ("Moses and the Prophets" are used to denote the OT canon of scripture), that is sufficient; no additional miracles would change their minds (which touches on the doctrine of total depravity and man's inability to will himself to salvation). Ultimately, this confirms that we are to be guided by God's Word and to pray to the Father through the Son, as we are told elsewhere in scripture. We cannot rely on Abraham to hear our prayers or convey them to anyone in Heaven, and we don't need to, since we have direct access to the throne of grace.

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Seems to have a lot of hate in his heart. I will say a prayer for him.

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I don't hate anyone. I don't hate Catholics. I feel sorry for those who have been deluded into believing a false gospel, and I hope they repent and are given the truth of the gospel.

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I believe you have a lot of good in you and you are trying to bring awareness of Christ to a lot of people who otherwise would not know of Him. This is good. I respect that and thank God for that. I am Catholic and I believe we are a lot closer in our beliefs than you think. Keep on doing His work.

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Agreed. I've sometimes referred to him as TD's "Defender of the Faith" because of his tireless dedication to proclaiming the Gospel.

And agreed about being closer than we think. We're still hung up on this faith + works = justification and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what Catholic teaching is on trial.

This is straight from the Catholic Catechism on Justification:

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I. Justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

(God) gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature.... For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.... But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

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