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re: Abortion from the Libertarian Perspective: Personhood
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:16 pm to Joshjrn
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:16 pm to Joshjrn
i’m not forcing anyone, it would be better for society if everyone did. But of course this isn’t a perfect world.
I’m just advocating that natural law and human dignity be protected, especially in the court of law.
I’m just advocating that natural law and human dignity be protected, especially in the court of law.
2
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:19 pm to 25smeckles
quote:
i’m not forcing anyone, it would be better for society if everyone did. But of course this isn’t a perfect world.
Are you not forcing a woman for nine months? Are you not forcing the parents, or the state (and by extension, the taxpayers), beyond that?
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:24 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
You tried to justify abortion via being legal and thus making it OK.
I stated the legality of abortion. It is legally okay. That's not debatable and has not been since 1973.
quote:
So let me ask you this...before the date abortion was legalized was abortion murder as it was not legal?
To some, I'm sure. To me and many others, no, because we see a difference between a pregnancy and a birth.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:40 pm to 25smeckles
quote:
I’m just advocating that natural law and human dignity be protected, especially in the court of law.
Who determines what is "natural law and human dignity?" You live in a pluralistic society of many viewpoints. Should your religious views determine laws? Should my secular views prevail? Again, because ours is a democratic republic we have to compromise.
You want a legal ban on abortion. I want a freer abortion on demand without many of the restrictions that have been unfairly placed on pregnant women.
The Supreme Court set down guidelines in 1973 for legal abortion and set limits. While more limititations have been attempted (with some success and many failures) by fanatical anti-abortionists, Roe v. Wade still reigns as the SC's workable solution to the question of abortion.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 6:58 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
But if we acknowledge that this is arbitrary, what’s to stop us from lowering or eliminating this requirement?
Absolutely nothing. We just need a bright line rule to make things simple. It could be 16, it could be 21, it could be anything, but 18 is what has been culturally agreed upon.
All law is arbitrary. What governments do is restrict arbitrary action. Typically these arbitrary decisions are guided by some over-arching philosophy or social/cultural norms.
This post was edited on 12/30/17 at 7:11 pm
Posted on 12/30/17 at 7:29 pm to Joshjrn
Unless women sometimes give birth to puppies, the fetus is a person as soon as its life begins, which is conception.
Even Dr. Seuss new a person was a person no matter how small.
Even Dr. Seuss new a person was a person no matter how small.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 7:31 pm to Joshjrn
The reason why people used to take their baby to the woods and it was acceptable as cuz babies don't remember anything they don't have any awareness etc.
Luckily most of us feel like that's a little harsh though so I think starting once the baby is born is a pretty good time too enforce laws to protect it. People that say aborting a fetus in its first and second trimester is murder are ridiculous. It's not a fully formed human it doesn't have any memory or awareness what's going on and buy a legal definition is not a person yet because it has not been born
Luckily most of us feel like that's a little harsh though so I think starting once the baby is born is a pretty good time too enforce laws to protect it. People that say aborting a fetus in its first and second trimester is murder are ridiculous. It's not a fully formed human it doesn't have any memory or awareness what's going on and buy a legal definition is not a person yet because it has not been born
Posted on 12/30/17 at 8:04 pm to The7Sins
If there is a heartbeat then it is a human
Posted on 12/30/17 at 9:52 pm to kingbob
But if we can arbitrarily lower that floor, what’s to stop us from saying there is no floor and that there is no duty to sustain at all?
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:16 pm to Joshjrn
are we not forcing everyone not to steal? of course they could still do it, doesn’t mean we should stop from preventing it and making it illegal.
The problem is the adoption system; it should be given back to the Church. adoption is way to expensive, it needs to be simplified and made easier for those that would love to take unwanted children because they can’t have any.
The problem is the adoption system; it should be given back to the Church. adoption is way to expensive, it needs to be simplified and made easier for those that would love to take unwanted children because they can’t have any.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:22 pm to Kentucker
like or not, we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles. They should be protected as they are the foundation of western civilization. The more you do to strip that away the more secular we will become and the more the government will dig in your life.
that being said the government has every right to “step into your life” when you decide you want to harm or kill another human being, because it is the governments role to protect the rights of all
life begins at conception, this biological fact has been held up until the sexual revolution when people no longer wanted responsibilities with their sex life.
that being said the government has every right to “step into your life” when you decide you want to harm or kill another human being, because it is the governments role to protect the rights of all
life begins at conception, this biological fact has been held up until the sexual revolution when people no longer wanted responsibilities with their sex life.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:25 pm to 25smeckles
quote:
like or not, we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles
That is not true, hence seperation of church and state
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:26 pm to Joshjrn
Even though we don’t acknowledge full personhood to children, it is still illegal to kill them.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:28 pm to Kentucker
oh because YOU don’t see it as immoral and murderous it means it must not be.
can’t wait to tell the pedophile in jail that we had morality all wrong and all that mattered were his feelings.
that is why there has to be a natural law, otherwise everything is based on perception and emotion.
from the structure of you argument i’m assuming you must be agnostic or atheist as well which means you would never agree that there is such a thing
can’t wait to tell the pedophile in jail that we had morality all wrong and all that mattered were his feelings.
that is why there has to be a natural law, otherwise everything is based on perception and emotion.
from the structure of you argument i’m assuming you must be agnostic or atheist as well which means you would never agree that there is such a thing
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:29 pm to Ebbandflow
it IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE
quote:
Our nation's history provides overwhelming evidence that America was birthed upon Judeo-Christian principles. The first act of America's first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer and to lead Congress in the reading of four chapters of the Bible. In 1776, in approving the Declaration of Independence, our founders acknowledged that all men "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." and noted that they were relying "on the protection of Divine Providence" in the founding of this country. John Quincy Adams said, "The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity." Also, the signers of the 1783 Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War, insisted the treaty begin with the phrase, "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity."
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:38 pm to 25smeckles
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:38 pm to LSUGrrrl
quote:
Even though we don’t acknowledge full personhood to children, it is still illegal to kill them.
Currently, sure. But it hasn’t always been, and doesn’t have to be, that way. That’s my point. We have tacitly made decisions on the level of personhood afforded from zygote to adult without actually acknowledging that’s what we are doing.
Pro lifers have tacitly decreed that zygotes, embryos, and fetuses should have the same level of personhood as newborns. Pro choicers have tacitly decreed that zygotes, embryos, and fetuses should have a lower status of personhood than newborns. Neither side has given much of an explanation as to why.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:47 pm to Ebbandflow
huffington post really!?
like i would open that garbage. Didn’t know your source was a bunch of journalist with a degree is gender studies lol
it’s not even worth arguing with you if that’s what you are going to use
like i would open that garbage. Didn’t know your source was a bunch of journalist with a degree is gender studies lol
it’s not even worth arguing with you if that’s what you are going to use
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:48 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Neither side has given much of an explanation as to why.
Because it’s a scientific tie. Therefore, individual values make the break. Not that the right doesn’t value liberty and the left doesn’t value life but which is valued MORE.
quote:
Currently, sure. But it hasn’t always been, and doesn’t have to be, that way.
But the pendulum has already swung all the way back from those views. Crimes against children are often punished more heavily than those against adults. That’s not going to change for at least 2 lifetimes. So, if we are moving, as a society, toward protection of children, abortion becomes harder to justify with every new law.
Posted on 12/30/17 at 10:50 pm to 25smeckles
quote:
huffington post really!?
like i would open that garbage. Didn’t know your source was a bunch of journalist with a degree is gender studies lol
it’s not even worth arguing with you if that’s what you are going to use
In this particular case it doesn't matter. Their source examples so it really doesn't matter who wrote the article
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