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re: Abortion from the Libertarian Perspective: Personhood
Posted on 1/1/18 at 1:47 pm to llfshoals
Posted on 1/1/18 at 1:47 pm to llfshoals
quote:
Actually it's quite easy.
When the egg and sperm combine and fertilization occurs, you have a new human.
no b/c it hasn't implanted yet and a metric frick ton (possibly well over half) of fertilized eggs fail to result in a normal pregnancy. your standard would make all sexually active women mass murderers
LINK
quote:
In humans, it has been estimated that between 30% and 70% of conceptuses are lost before or at the time of implantation, without women being aware that they were pregnant. Of these losses, half are probably a consequence of genetic defects in the conceptus. The etiology of the remaining losses is unknown.
so 15-35% of all fertilized eggs are rejected for genetic abnormalities
and another 15-35% fail for other reasons
2
Posted on 1/1/18 at 1:56 pm to SlowFlowPro
And even after implantation, miscarriages (aka spontaneous abortions) occur frequently, particularly in the first two trimesters.
I've tried in this thread to discuss possible distinctions between actively killing a fetus and simply flushing a zygote/embryo, but it seems few want to discuss anything that isn't the equivalent of stabbing a baby in the head with an ice pick.
I've tried in this thread to discuss possible distinctions between actively killing a fetus and simply flushing a zygote/embryo, but it seems few want to discuss anything that isn't the equivalent of stabbing a baby in the head with an ice pick.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 2:11 pm to Joshjrn
I don’t know what the debate is even about. Abortion is legal.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 2:15 pm to TheMidasTouch
quote:
I don’t know what the debate is even about. Abortion is legal.
I'm not even sure this is supposed to mean
Posted on 1/1/18 at 2:19 pm to Joshjrn
It means abortion is legal. Both sides need to get over it.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 2:25 pm to TheMidasTouch
quote:
It means abortion is legal. Both sides need to get over it.
I assume you extend that same logic to things that are currently illegal, and that we shouldn't debate the laws in this nation at all, ever?
Posted on 1/1/18 at 9:31 pm to Joshjrn
Women can make their own decisions. Libertarians believe in limited govt and telling women no abortions steers them towards the Libs. We need those votes.
From a moral/religious prespective is where I lean more conservative with this topic.
Late term abortions is where the govt should step in and say “no”.
Feminists should agree considering those are lives of females involved.
From a moral/religious prespective is where I lean more conservative with this topic.
Late term abortions is where the govt should step in and say “no”.
Feminists should agree considering those are lives of females involved.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 11:31 pm to Joshjrn
quote:you blithely say this but i presented multiple lines of reasoning showing that it is objectively the case.
But that doesn't mean that's reflective of some objective reality.
quote:whistling past the graveyard does not mean they have been able to ethically prove that abortion for convenience is morally justifiable.
There seem to be millions of rational, reasonable people who think
quote:until someone can prove that there is a personhood gap or that it's ok to discriminate against someone regardless of their existential status and the lack of a voice for self preservation - then yes, it's unreasonable.
to act as though such a position is idiomatic is unreasonable
Posted on 1/1/18 at 11:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:it's not at all impossible. we know that there is no personhood gap from parent to offspring. the building blocks for offspring personality/mind are present even before conception. there are merely joined together at conception. that is in no way scientifically or metaphysically controversial. heck, we can even now determine genetic disposition to certain traits before conception merely from a dna test.
that determination is basically impossible
quote:it's none of the above. it's merely the fact of the matter. people are trying to cloud the issue with those things.
that's why this is more of a philosophical/religious discussion more than a scientific one
Posted on 1/1/18 at 11:43 pm to tiderider
quote:again, i'm not telling anyone anything. it is a fact that the mother will have lost nothing if she gives birth and then gives the baby up for adoption. in the process, she didn't murder a baby because she respected it's rights to live and now that baby can have some choice in how their life proceeds. this just isn't rocket science
so you (presumably a man) get to determine what a woman has or hasn't 'lost' by being forced by your belief to carry a rape-baby to term
quote:what does this even mean? here are two questions to answer
you have the moral/intellectual authority to determine the capability of love for a rape-baby
1. can we respect the baby's right to live? absolutely
2. if we do, the person has the chance to live their own life right? yes.
there is absolutely NOTHING forcing the mother to have an abortion for convenience.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 11:49 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:no, the particular eggs/sperm you are referring to weren't viable to begin with. that's why the body discards them after conception - because it knows the baby could not be carried to term properly. iow, your point is not ceteris paribus.
a metric frick ton (possibly well over half) of fertilized eggs fail to result in a normal pregnancy. your standard would make all sexually active women mass murderers
we are not talking about those cases. we are talking about the cases where the conception is viable and could be carried to term properly but are ended out of convenience.
Posted on 1/1/18 at 11:50 pm to Joshjrn
quote:is the operational way to describe
simply flushing a zygote/embryo
quote:
actively killing a fetus
Posted on 1/2/18 at 9:24 pm to bfniii
quote:
is the operational way to describe
I'm trying to figure out if you've simply found this tack to be rhetorically effective or if this makes sense in your head.
With either the incapability or unwillingness to discern between positive and negative rights combined with blind determination to deny the distinctions in personhood we tacitly make every day, it's little wonder the pro-life side of the debate hasn't made more progress.
Then again, if I posted this thread on Democratic Underground instead of on here, I'm sure I would have been equally disappointed by the responses. Unfortunately for you, and for anyone who would like to see a more productive debate on the subject, they own the status quo, so their lack of persuasiveness is of no moment.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 9:37 pm to Joshjrn
quote:neither. i'm telling you what is the fact of the matter. you can use the medical terminology if you want but it amounts to murdering a person. your unwillingness to acknowledge that personhood is present at conception doesn't remove murder from the equation. that's the problem in the debate. pro choice advocates don't care/don't know that murder is the case.
I'm trying to figure out if you've simply found this tack to be rhetorically effective or if this makes sense in your head.
quote:everyone, everyone has the positive right to live and not be murdered.
positive and negative rights
quote:still failing the SLED test. it's not that hard to understand
deny the distinctions in personhood
quote:immorality will pretty much always have the upper hand in a consumerist society (tofflerian third wave)
it's little wonder the pro-life side of the debate hasn't made more progress
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