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Message
re: Abortion from a Republican woman's perspective...
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:31 pm to Adam Banks
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:31 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You clearly seem to define personhood based on limbs consciousness and pain sensation based on your post.
Well if consciousness never exists, I would lean on the side of those cells not being human, for starters.
If the cells neve reach the status of being a human, then comparing that to humans is irrational and bad rhetoric.
You have framed your argument where those cells are always human, however, which is why I always have to call out the framing for what it is.
Killing cells prior to becoming a human cannot be compared to killing cells have have become a human. Stop making bad arguments.
2
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:31 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:quote:
They are human beings from the moment of conception.
That is your opinion.
Nope. That is a fact.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:32 pm to Azkiger
quote:
She might not be a human, either.
tomato tomato
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:32 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
Why do you feel entitled to force that woman that was raped and sexually assaulted to deal with that pregnancy/ What right do you have to force her? Why do you get to make that choice for her? It wasn't her choice she was criminally assaulted and the situation was forced upon her?
You've pulled this shite multiple times now. You're not going to get anywhere with anyone with an IQ over 105 until you approach this discussion with more neutral framing.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:32 pm to madamtiger
You raise valid points and I think most reasonable pro life people are of a similar mindset. Unfortunately pro abortion people can’t bring themselves to say it’s an abhorrent practice and should only be used in extreme cases. It’s really hard to trust people that romanticize and fetishize such a grotesque practice. Not to mention belligerent Karens who will tell me to shut up because I don’t have a uterus and I can’t tell her what she can do with her body when virtually all laws involve society limiting what you can do with your body.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:32 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
Why do you feel entitled to force that woman that was raped and sexually assaulted to deal with that pregnancy/ What right do you have to force her? Why do you get to make that choice for her? It wasn't her choice she was criminally assaulted and the situation was forced upon her?
Because that is another person inside of her who is completely 100% innocent of any crime that occurred.
People have to deal with incredibly painful traumatic hurtful events that alter their lives all the time.
That doesn’t give them a 1 murder for free card.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:33 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
Nope. That is a fact.
If it were a fact, then that would be the majority position of the country.
Since it's a pretty extreme minority, you may want to reconsider your framing.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If the cells neve reach the status of being a human, then comparing that to humans is irrational and bad rhetoric.
this is truly the least intellectual argument ever made about abortion. No one who expects to be taken seriously on this issue claims fetuses aren't human. This post was edited on 8/31/24 at 2:34 pm
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Laws are used for the same reasons that religious morality was developed: societal trial and error.
Murder of humans is disruptive to society, so we make it illegal.
Theft of property is disruptive to society, so we make it illegal.
Then you get into fun stuff like adultery, interracial marriage, same sex marriage, etc. They were once illegal, but we realized they weren't disruptive like we were told, so they're not illegal anymore (even though many people still see them as immoral acts). Or we can go in reverse: having sex with children. Wasn't nearly as big of a deal in the past but we have realized the impact this has on children and the later societal effects: both immoral and illegal now.
Again Slow…. If there are no morals in politics, you don’t have the right to even exist, in as much as you are placing that upon children dependent upon their mother to stay alive.
Every single one of our rights are predicated on morality that is not contingent upon popularity and what you stand to gain from it, but a long standing biblical belief through most of Western Civilization’s history that man has God given rights given to them that man should never usurp. We defined it in our very Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the same being denied to some human beings and yet enjoyed by others who are willing to kill others in order to not be inconvenienced, although through their own actions.
Every single one of our bill of rights in this country are moral in nature. ALL of them, and all from a long standing moral code which mankind has based our lives upon, and we based our government upon… not the arbitrary beliefs of a monarch or magistrate, but upon the unshaken morality of our Creator. You may not like it, and want to fight it, but them’s the facts jack.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:34 pm to Azkiger
quote:
You're not going to get anywhere with anyone with an IQ over 105 until you approach this discussion with more neutral framing.
What?
He is the one who framed the argument?
Apparently you aren't in the 105+ category because you didn't follow the argument
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:34 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Well if consciousness never exists, I would lean on the side of those cells not being human, for starters. If the cells neve reach the status of being a human, then comparing that to humans is irrational and bad rhetoric. You have framed your argument where those cells are always human, however, which is why I always have to call out the framing for what it is. Killing cells prior to becoming a human cannot be compared to killing cells have have become a human. Stop making bad arguments.
The “cells” have completely separate DNA from the mother. They are carrying out functions different than the cells of the mother.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:35 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If it were a fact, then that would be the majority position of the country.
I'm shocked this has to be stated, but here we are: Facts do not require wide acceptance.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:36 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If it were a fact, then that would be the majority position of the country.
You don't think there are things in which the majority of the country is factually incorrect about?
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:36 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
No one who expects to be taken seriously on this issue claims fetuses aren't human.
Again
After a certain point they are human. Prior to that point, they are not.
The fact that this point can't be reached as a consensus of the most developed populations of human history, shows you it's not as simple as you try to frame it.
Again, I am not claiming to be a god and know what this point is, just so we're all clear. I'm not that egotistical, especially with such a serious topic.
But this is still the personal-moral discussion, and not the socio-political discussion.
Anytime abortion is debated on the personal-moral level it gets down to what I said above. There is no answer as of August 31, 2024.
The good thing is that we don't need an answer for the personal-moral debate to make political policies on the issue.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:37 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
People have to deal with incredibly painful traumatic hurtful events that alter their lives all the time.
So you would force her to endure more pain and trauma because of your personal viewpoint?
Again - does she not have any autonomy over fate? and why do you feel entitled to make that decision for her? What gives you the right?
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
After a certain point they are human. Prior to that point, they are not.
True. Prior to conception, there is no human.
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:38 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
If there are no morals in politics, you don’t have the right to even exist
This makes no sense.
quote:
Every single one of our rights are predicated on morality
Wrong
quote:
Every single one of our bill of rights in this country are moral in nature.
Wrong
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:39 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
does she not have any autonomy over fate?
Not over the fate of another person.
You ok with her murdering the 6 year old other child of the rapist?
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:40 pm to imjustafatkid
quote:
True. Prior to conception, there is no human.
You can frame this all you want, but you're ignoring the larger point, which isn't shocking since you have to fall back to your framing
Posted on 8/31/24 at 2:40 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
You ok with her murdering the 6 year old other child of the rapist?
Again, that child has reached the status of being human
If she aborts a fetus prior to reaching this status, it's not a logical or relevant comparison
This post was edited on 8/31/24 at 2:41 pm
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