re: Abortion as a political issue

Ok but you lost me, I'm not sure how what you're talking about relates to my position.

I see in your other posts you're discussing that you're dragging evangelicals to victories they wouldn't otherwise get so I assume that's what you're referencing.

I'm not sitting out the election over abortion. I have no control over the campaign's messaging. In fact, the campaign is sending our surrogates to crap on national bans and suggest Trump isn't even a fan of state restrictions. So I'm not sure what you think people in my spot should be doing here.

quote:

---

I vote red but I never understand how worked up people get about abortion.

---

Then you would have fit in swimmingly in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust.

quote:

---

No Republican sets any framing or association with abortion. The left and the media do.

---

And all they have to do is get them on record frantically doing one of these

quote:

---

Define it. Can you even define it? Tell me the difference between a 39 week in utero child and a 1 week new born? Is it morally OK to stick a knife in one but not the other? Why or why not?

---

....or have them "logic" themselves into saying women who are raped aren't allowed to abort the fetus that results.

And then it's over.

quote:

---

We're talking about killing human beings. Regardless of the word shell games people want to play, the reality of an abortion is that it leaves a human being dead at the end of each and every one, guaranteed.

---

Again, your framing isn't accepted, but even then, more DEM election victories = more abortions.

quote:

---

That's something you're willing to back off on for the sake of an election?

---

Personal morality is personal

Political policy preferences are something else

quote:

---

You—like myself—consistently endure the low IQ ire of posters here specifically because we do not support abandoning conservative stances in favor of populism. Abandoning this issue "to win elections" (which it wouldn't even do) would be doing that very same thing.

---

My version of politics isn't palatable to 90% of people. I understand that my ideal system will not be elected. I don't demand purity.

On this board I believe that many intelligent, logical posters have been dragged down to low IQ white trash land out of emotional thinking and they can be brought back to sanity in time. I've already seen these same people flip and flop their political identity plenty of times to know MAGA isn't their true self.

quote:

---

Abortion is a loser topic for Republicans, because they've allowed extremists to define their position nationally.

---

That's a ridiculous statement.

First of all, when you're talking about killing human beings, there is no "middle ground."

You can act like that's what you're doing, but if the human being is still dead at the end of the procedure you wish to remain legal, it's just as "extreme" as any other way to go about it.

Secondly, the "extremists" (what a dumb characterization, but...) haven't been "allowed" to define anything. The "moderates" are too pussy to say anything about it for fear of offending someone.

The "extremists" aren't afraid to stand up for something. So they are the ones on camera.

That's not "being allowed" to do anything. That's moderates being too cowardly to go on record saying anything.

quote:

---

First of all, when you're talking about killing human beings, there is no "middle ground."

---

quote:

---

Abortion is a loser topic for Republicans, because they've allowed extremists to define their position nationally.

---

quote:

---

That's a ridiculous statement.

---

Is it?

quote:

---

That's moderates being too cowardly to go on record saying anything.

---

Again, Youngkin came out in support of a 20-week ban and the 3 major exceptions and he won a blue state...in 2021.

He went on the record with reasonable policy and won, even with the national media shining a spotlight on VA the entire race.

Why? The vast majority of people are fine with a 20-week ban and the DEMs/Left couldn't frame him as some Evangelical or extremist.

quote:

---

But he is being a pussy without coming out with his preferred stance, because he doesn't want to offend Evangelicals.

This leaves the flank open for attack because he's permitting the DEMs/Left to define his positions, based on his role/support in overturning Roe

---

So you'd suggest he come out and declare himself openly pro choice and that he doesn't support strict state restrictions (and obviously doesn't support any national action)?

quote:

---

So you'd suggest he come out and declare himself openly pro choice and that he doesn't support strict state restrictions (and obviously doesn't support any national action)?

---

He doesn't have to say "pro choice".

It's also too late, now, but he SHOULD HAVE come out with a preferred policy position similar to what Youngkin had, and made that be known as his stance AND THEN used his spot as head of the Republican Party to influence other pols/states to adopting that policy position.

Then there is no more extremism to attack, with Trump, at least.

quote:

---

I just never understand old men getting mad about what women do to their bodies.

---

But that's not the actual issue. That's the reframe of the issue.

quote:

---

I vote red

---

quote:

---

Of
course it needs to have term limits, but that decision is between her and her god. She has to live with it the rest of her life.

I got way bigger shite to worry about.

---

There is no logical argument that can define a fetus as anything other than a human. None. And, as said above, the Left are allowed by the media to reframe the argument and make it to where yourself, voting red, take their stance completely and ignore morals and logic.

I know SFP will call me a crazy Evangelical for this, but those are the most defenseless humans on the planet and....

quote:

---

["You" got way bigger shite to worry about.

---

quote:

---

Personal morality is personal

---

So slavery was just a political issue? Jim Crow? Exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany? Personal choice? Don't want to kill a Jew, then don't kill a Jew, but you can't tell me I can't? Don't want to own a slave, great, don't own one, but you don't get to tell me I can't? That sort of thing?

Some public policies are morally neutral and are debated upon the basis of pragmatism. What works better. Some public policies are not morally neutral and should be debated upon the basis of morality. This is one of the latter.

quote:

---

I understand that my ideal system will not be elected. I don't demand purity.

---

There's a huge difference between "not demanding purity," which means that you are willing to accept some compromises, and having no standards at all.

quote:

---

or have them "logic" themselves into saying women who are raped aren't allowed to abort the fetus that results.

---

Tell me what the logic is behind the idea that they should be able to. Or are you saying that we shouldn't appeal to logic at all in this question?

This isn't difficult.

Any time you are appealing to ridicule to "prove" that a raped mother has the right to kill the unborn child, the logic behind it is that the mother defines the value of the child.

That's the logic of abortion. The value of the mother > the value of the child. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. That plus the idea that the mother somehow owns the child.

That's why if the mother kills the child it's legal, but if I kick a pregnant mother in the belly and I kill the unborn child against her wishes, I face charges.

Because her desire is what confers human rights to the child, not the existence of the chid itself.

Does that logic really make sense to you? Don't human rights just get attached for being a human being, regardless of what anyone else thinks about you or feels towards you?

Or (asking again) are you ridiculing the idea that someone would appeal to logic in this situation at all? We should just appeal to feelings?

If that's the case you can count me out. That's an absolutely horrible idea.

Always.

Regardless of the issue being discussed.

quote:

---

Not accepted?

---

His framing of the issue.

quote:

---

It is an indisputable fact that an abortion ends in the death of a human being,

---

A majority of Americans do not believe what is terminated is a human being until a certain point in the pregnancy.

It is a very, very disputed fact.

Also:

quote:

---

even then, more DEM election victories = more abortions.

---