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Message
re: Abortion as a political issue
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:07 am to wackatimesthree
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:07 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
I'm not the one who defends The Man Child for every stupid thing he says that hurts him politically with the plan of blaming "massive cheating" if he loses.
If you're looking for a whiner in that regard you've got the wrong guy.
holy shite. When you get destroyed of course its muh Trump Like this hasnt been a losing issue for decades you clowns
0
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:09 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
then why not drop all positions and just promise people free stuff?
I mean Trump is doing this, and did this as President
That's why our deficit/debt is doing so poorly
quote:
You're now like those idiots who post from time to time saying, "You can't legislate morality!" Completely ignoring that many if not most laws are codified morality.
They shouldn't be, and many of them are legislated by societal trial and error (which created how we see morality and injected it into religion, but that's a different discussion)
quote:
That's obviously not a "diversion attempt," it's pointing out your blatant hypocrisy on claiming that personal positions should have no place in the discussion when your personal position clearly does.
Your analytical skills aren't what you think they are.
quote:
Sure. Except numbers 2-4.
quote:
2) What % of pro-life voters could be lost due to being demoralized, after hearing Republicans use Democrat language like "reproductive rights"?
Asking a % of lost votes doesn't deal with OP's personal opinions on abortion
quote:
3) If abortion is someone's main issue, what would it take for them to be convinced to vote for Trump over Harris? Ate there even votes to be mined from this demographic that is being appealed to?
Asking how to sell the issues to voters doesn't involve OP's personal opinions on abortion
quote:
4) What would a Republican or Trump have to say or do for them not to be blamed for every single contrived, sob story about some girl that couldn't get an abortion.
This has nothing to do with any personal opinions about basically all political issues (unless you want to make media reporting a political issue)
So no, you're wrong. 2-4 do not deal with analyzing the issue through the lens of personal opinions on the issue at hand.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:09 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
They are too emotionally invested in the topic to analyze it as a political issue.
No, we're not acting like the only metrics that matter in an election are what can the politician say to win.
Again, all the people on this thread advocating for this better never complain about the "GOPe" caving for political reasons ever again.
They only did for decades what you want to happen in this case.
The only reason you got mad at them is because the stuff they caved on was stuff that you personally cared about, and you don't personally care about this issue.
Funny how that works—with a real life example that has transformed the Republican Party—despite the bullshite you're shoveling about it.
This post was edited on 8/28/24 at 8:11 am
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:12 am to wackatimesthree
The contingent that screamed about compromise is completely surrendering to people who will always hate them
Trump doing it is whatever, he was never seriously pro-life. But plenty of his followers claim to have been and are now just completely abandoning a historically core issue to them.
Trump doing it is whatever, he was never seriously pro-life. But plenty of his followers claim to have been and are now just completely abandoning a historically core issue to them.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:13 am to Bass Tiger
Trump needs to highlight several things in this arena to push back on the false narratives.
1) Roe V Wade was a horrible legal decision from a legal standpoint. It was simply a decision trying to create rights without substance, thus leading to potential for reversal.
2) Nowhere in the constitution is abortion protected as a federal right. Those rights were clearly stated and this was intentional to maintain the rights of states.
3) Abortion is a very personal idea, and should be handled at the local/state level. There should be debate and discussion on reasonable paths to move forward instead of the extreme vitriol driving it now.
4) Extreme limitations that ignore special circumstances (I.e rape, incest, health of the mother) will only hurt more than help. Hell, even Islam states abortion for those reasons is understandable. So Muslims are more forward thinking and understanding than Evangelical Christians, who would have thought it.
In the end, you can still take a stance with abortion and allow for reasonable debate and discussion. This is what the right should do. Otherwise, this will turn into the gay marriage snowball effect that resisting legal/civil unions led to the forcing of legal marriage rights and infringing on the idea of a religious union.
1) Roe V Wade was a horrible legal decision from a legal standpoint. It was simply a decision trying to create rights without substance, thus leading to potential for reversal.
2) Nowhere in the constitution is abortion protected as a federal right. Those rights were clearly stated and this was intentional to maintain the rights of states.
3) Abortion is a very personal idea, and should be handled at the local/state level. There should be debate and discussion on reasonable paths to move forward instead of the extreme vitriol driving it now.
4) Extreme limitations that ignore special circumstances (I.e rape, incest, health of the mother) will only hurt more than help. Hell, even Islam states abortion for those reasons is understandable. So Muslims are more forward thinking and understanding than Evangelical Christians, who would have thought it.
In the end, you can still take a stance with abortion and allow for reasonable debate and discussion. This is what the right should do. Otherwise, this will turn into the gay marriage snowball effect that resisting legal/civil unions led to the forcing of legal marriage rights and infringing on the idea of a religious union.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:15 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I mean Trump is doing this, and did this as President
That's why our deficit/debt is doing so poorly
And you've posted against it a million times.
Again, the difference in this case is that you PERSONALLY don't care about this issue, but you do the other stuff he's done.
quote:
They shouldn't be
Ridiculous. A whole other discussion, but it would literally be impossible to set laws without considering morality. The standard of morality might be in debate, but it would literally be impossible to do that.
quote:
Your analytical skills aren't what you think they are.
Well, they must be better than yours if all you can muster there is an unrelated ad hom without addressing the point at all.
quote:
Asking a % of lost votes doesn't deal with OP's personal opinions on abortion
It addresses the voters' personal opinions. Am I not a voter?
quote:
So no, you're wrong. 2-4 do not deal with analyzing the issue through the lens of personal opinions on the issue at hand.
LOL. Of course it does. Again, exactly why you criticize Trump for other populist refusals to uphold conservative principles all the fricking time, but you're unconcerned about this one because you don't personally care.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:17 am to wackatimesthree
Kind of shows you how morally bankrupt these people are when being pro abortion is your top issue.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:19 am to RogerTheShrubber
And the power of peer pressure. I think many women have it as a top issue primarily due to the theme that they’re not fighting for women if they don’t.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:20 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Abortion is one of the primary issues that has hurt the expansion of the non-DEM brand in US politics.
What is the most moderate/middle position for a national policy?
1. Unfettered, abortion on demand until birth,
2. No abortions, ever, ever
3. Leave it up to states to decide
I'll hang up and listen.
This post was edited on 8/28/24 at 8:20 am
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:20 am to Pettifogger
quote:
The contingent that screamed about compromise is completely surrendering to people who will always hate them
Not just screamed about compromise, they regularly justify the abandonment of core principles as being necessary because the "GOPe" sold them out doing exactly what they want done here.
Make up your minds, you idiots.
Which is it?
And to the point of what SFP is now shoveling, he's pushed back on that reasoning just like I have. But not on this issue....hmmmmmmm, why could that possibly be? Why is this the one time he advocates abandoning the conservative position?
I just can't figure it out. It's such a mystery.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:20 am to Pettifogger
quote:
And the power of peer pressure.
Sadly, I believe this is the most compelling component. The hive mind is the birthplace of most fairy tales and insecure people fall prey to it.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:22 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Kind of shows you how morally bankrupt these people are when being pro abortion is your top issue.
It also shows you how morally bankrupt the people inside the base are who want to acquiesce to anything for the sake of trying to appeal to voters.
(Which again, wouldn't work anyway. We're literally arguing over a completely moot point, as no matter what Trump says about it it will not move the needle).
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:22 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
And you've posted against it a million times.
Yes. There are ways to discuss the deficit/debt issue and make them palatable to the public. Trump just chooses not to.
quote:
A whole other discussion, but it would literally be impossible to set laws without considering morality. T
Naw. Just use the same analysis that created morality (and organized religion, effectively): societal trial and error. Behavior disruptive to society gets punished via crimes (and back in the Bronze age, the state-based religions used to reinforce this regulatory method).
quote:
Well, they must be better than yours if all you can muster there is an unrelated ad hom without addressing the point at all.
You're assuming my stance and are doing a bad job. That's not an ad hom when I point out how bad your analytical skills are.
quote:
It addresses the voters' personal opinions. Am I not a voter?
You're shifting the discussion to re-frame, as usual.
quote:
why you criticize Trump for other populist refusals to uphold conservative principles all the fricking time,
Again, we go back to trial and error: will there be more or fewer abortions if Democrats gain more political power?
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:25 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
What is the most moderate/middle position for a national policy?
I have already posted this.
Trump, as the de factor head of the GOP, should push a national GOP platform of some limit after 12-20 weeks, with the 3 major exceptions.
That means criticizing states who are more restrictive than his policy (like he did recently with Alabama and IVF).
It may be too late, but he should start for the next generation.
quote:
1. Unfettered, abortion on demand until birth,
2. No abortions, ever, ever
3. Leave it up to states to decide
That's quite the false choice, especially within the context of this discussion
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:26 am to wackatimesthree
SFP doesn’t care about abortion and thinks it’s a political loser foisted upon the right by evangelicals who he dislikes mostly out of intellectual superiority. He’s mostly right on the first part, although they try and segregate conservativism and social conservatism in a way that is historically absurd.
To me, there is no meaningful conservative movement without a pro-life agenda.
To me, there is no meaningful conservative movement without a pro-life agenda.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:28 am to Pettifogger
quote:
I think many women have it as a top issue primarily due to the theme that they’re not fighting for women if they don’t.
Just my opinion, but I think it's a little more fundamentally selfish than that.
I think pretty much all women believe the story that they are oppressed to some degree by the patriarchy. That men have it better. I believe that it is deeply ingrained in them to be resentful and even jealous of men due to the narrative of feminism that has seeped into society.
And women love to be passive aggressive, especially when they can use the power of the court or the law to get back at men for real or perceived slights.
I think the hardline abortion stance stems from that undercurrent of resentment. I think it's a very powerful national narrative.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:30 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
I think pretty much all women believe the story that they are oppressed to some degree by the patriarchy.
Crusty white men took their rights away. That's how they perceve it.
The funny thing is that without the Dobbs decision, the left would have almost nothing to talk about. It was a political godsend.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
That's quite the false choice, especially within the context of this discussion
I said I would would hang up and listen, but I reject the notion this is a false choice.
There is no perfect abortion policy, so why not allow states to govern themselves?
It isn't a constitutional right and was always bullshite when presented as such. Like I said, there is a better argument that allowing abortion violates the unborn child's rights. There was no good to come of 7 justices saying, essentially, "We do not care about your State legislature's rules, abortions are just fine", particularly in such a poorly reasoned, poorly written decision.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:35 am to antibarner
quote:
Heres a question the pro abortion crowd doesnt like. That "fetus" is not a baby. But you let someone cause a mother to lose a four month fetus and in some states thats manslaughter. Now HOW can that be? Can't have it both ways
Well, from an argument perspective, with RvW now overturned, those states can bring their laws in line with each other. That gives people an argument to fight back that was previously eliminated by RvW making it legal nationally. They can’t hide behind that anymore.
Reality is that you are not going back to total abortion bans.
Posted on 8/28/24 at 8:36 am to Bunk Moreland
You guys could be right - but i think you underestimate the number of traditionally minded women who think abortion is gross but will take a pro choice view under pressure for the same reason they blacked out their instagram for Floyd - terrified of being on the outside
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