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re: A Turtledove Story of South African History (possible Land Use Solution added on p.4)
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:10 am to More&Les
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:10 am to More&Les
quote:It is not amalgamation OR convoluted. It is simply a way to examine the unknown history of one place by making comparisons to people and places more familiar to the reader.
you're not really teaching them anything, you've created an amalgamation of two different histories, one that you've made up and have convoluted the whole thing...
If it is not helpful to you, that is fine. Others may find it useful.
1
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:11 am to AggieHank86
Not a bad analogy.
The history can be summed up even more as
-Europeans settle a sparsely inhabited part of south Africa
-Begin spreading out into new territory and encounter Bantu(who had migrated south from Central Africa)
-Some attempt to buy land from Zulu(bantu), get double crossed and slaughtered
-Whites then just wage war to take land
-Create first world society
-Over 300 years blacks migrate in for opportunity, become majority
-Whites, not trusting blacks, start apartheid(Jim Crow type laws) after 1948
-UN applies pressure on South African whites to cede power
-Blacks now run show and validate all the reasons whites didnt trust them in the first place
The history can be summed up even more as
-Europeans settle a sparsely inhabited part of south Africa
-Begin spreading out into new territory and encounter Bantu(who had migrated south from Central Africa)
-Some attempt to buy land from Zulu(bantu), get double crossed and slaughtered
-Whites then just wage war to take land
-Create first world society
-Over 300 years blacks migrate in for opportunity, become majority
-Whites, not trusting blacks, start apartheid(Jim Crow type laws) after 1948
-UN applies pressure on South African whites to cede power
-Blacks now run show and validate all the reasons whites didnt trust them in the first place
This post was edited on 8/27/18 at 8:13 am
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:11 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
That's where you need to imagine the British are actually Dutch, but substitute Hitler for Churchill, except where Hitler was for Socialism, imagine that Socialism part didn't happen. Then imagine Churchill decided the Northern Irish needed to be converted to Judaism, and forced to immigrate to Germany where they could be exterminated. Though the Dutch, who were actually British, objected they were overrun by Churchill's Germans, and we all love Churchill. So that's how . . .
and there you has it
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:12 am to Old Hellen Yeller
quote:
Your intellect is wasted
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:12 am to NC_Tigah
quote:I am sorry that the approach was too abstract for you.
That's where you need to imagine the British are actually Dutch, but substitute Hitler for Churchill, except where Hitler was for Socialism, imagine that Socialism part didn't happen. Then imagine Churchill decided the Northern Irish needed to be converted to Judaism, and forced to immigrate to Germany where they could be exterminated. Though the Dutch, who were actually British, objected they were overrun by Churchill's Germans, and we all love Churchill. So that's how . . .
I actually think it would make a good Turtledove book. I may send him the outline.
This post was edited on 8/27/18 at 8:18 am
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:14 am to AggieHank86
Here’s a better history:
Imagine that you show up to a swimming pool and no one is there, so naturally you get in and swim around and invite some of your friends and y’all get a water polo game going and your water polo game is the best in the city
Then some people who can’t swim show up and say they were there all along and they throw trash in the pool and get on the shallow end and pee and soon enough there is a turd floating in it.
You and your friends clean the pool and try to teach them how to swim but they insist on beating you up and stealing from your locker instead
You call the police and the police say you’re in the wrong. They call the police and the police come and write you tickets and tow your car away
Eventually they start killing your friends and some of your friends leave
There are turds floating all around you in the pool and you feel unsafe
Imagine that you show up to a swimming pool and no one is there, so naturally you get in and swim around and invite some of your friends and y’all get a water polo game going and your water polo game is the best in the city
Then some people who can’t swim show up and say they were there all along and they throw trash in the pool and get on the shallow end and pee and soon enough there is a turd floating in it.
You and your friends clean the pool and try to teach them how to swim but they insist on beating you up and stealing from your locker instead
You call the police and the police say you’re in the wrong. They call the police and the police come and write you tickets and tow your car away
Eventually they start killing your friends and some of your friends leave
There are turds floating all around you in the pool and you feel unsafe
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:15 am to AggieHank86
quote:
It is not amalgamation OR convoluted
its both
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:18 am to AggieHank86
If only the whites had left them the tools to succeed
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:18 am to bamafan1001
quote:
Blacks now run show and validate all the reasons whites didnt trust them in the first place
Could have pretty well summed it all up with this ^^^^
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:23 am to bamafan1001
quote:
-Blacks now run show and validate all the reasons whites didnt trust them in the first place
And while I was sympathetic to those suffering on the wrong side of Apartheid and racist policies of pre-1995 South Africa - the absolute truth of this statement says more than the entire OP (however well-intentioned it was and how much effort it took).
I'm not saying the ends justify the means in all cases. I'm saying that many folks said this would happen and it did. Pretending it wouldn't or denying it has does no one any good.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:23 am to NC_Tigah
quote:It was intended to be more Turtledove than Tolkien.
Reads like a bad version the Hobbit.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:23 am to NIH
quote:
If only the whites had left them the tools to succeed
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:34 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
And while I was sympathetic to those suffering on the wrong side of Apartheid and racist policies of pre-1995 South Africa - the absolute truth of this statement says more than the entire OP (however well-intentioned it was and how much effort it took).
I'm not saying the ends justify the means in all cases. I'm saying that many folks said this would happen and it did. Pretending it wouldn't or denying it has does no one any good.
Apartheid was a representation of the mistrust that had been developed since the 17th century. Whites knew ceding power to blacks would bring collapse.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:39 am to NIH
quote:I find it interesting that most posters are skipping straight forward in time to an era that my OP analogy does not even address.
If only the whites had left them the tools to succeed
My goal was not to address directly the issue of uncompensated land expropriation, but rather simply to provide a greater understanding of the historical context underlying that issue.
The swimming pool analogy demonstrates the American public’s complete lack of understanding of these issues, in that it envisions only one pool. If we want to use that analogy, it would actually go,something like the following.
My friend and I go to the county pool and find it occupied by only a few folks. We offer them some beer to use one side of the pool for water polo. We know they don’t want to hold the net in place for us, so we bring in some other guys and make them do it. We get a good game going, and we hav e lots of fun. The guys holding the nets? Not so much.
But then the county transfers management of the pool to the city, and the city says we cannot make these guys hold the net for us. So we take our nets and our flunkies and we move to a pool in an adjacent suburb. This time, we drive away the few locals in the pool and atart a new game, still making our flunkies hold the net for us. Great game ensues.
Word reaches the city and county about our behavior, so they city annexes our suburb and again tells us we cannot make people hold our net for us, We seek partition of the two neighborhoods from the rest of the city and again make people hold the nets for us, now at both pools. Again, the polo is great .... for us.
The state steps in and gives both pools to the locals and the flunkies. They try to start a polo team, but are not very good at it.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:42 am to AggieHank86
What's the point of your OP? How do you think it relates to the current issues? I'm guessing what you really want to say is that what is going on is justified. You may not say it outright, but it is what you're getting at.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:43 am to AggieHank86
I like Turtledove so I will check this book out. Thanks.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:43 am to AggieHank86
Does this change the fact they South African's will be starving to death in a few years?
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:44 am to NIH
In what sense does anything you typed relate to today's world and why SA is in the news and being discussed on this board? Some sort of justification for the current actions and climate there?
Honestly, what's the benefit of reading your post outside of purely historical interest.
Confirmed. For anyone looking for a TLDR, OP is claiming racism is ok against white people because, History.
Honestly, what's the benefit of reading your post outside of purely historical interest.
quote:
My goal was not to address directly the issue of uncompensated land expropriation, but rather simply to provide a greater understanding of the historical context underlying that issue.
Confirmed. For anyone looking for a TLDR, OP is claiming racism is ok against white people because, History.
This post was edited on 8/27/18 at 8:46 am
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:45 am to Robin Masters
quote:I ask in all seriousness that you show me where I incorporated “baggage or bias,” because I tried to exclude any value judgments from the story.
Nothing says "confirmation bias" like using our own history (and all it's baggaged biases) to try and justify the history of a region half a world away.
Posted on 8/27/18 at 8:47 am to AggieHank86
quote:
exclude any value judgments from the story.
Then WHY did you give a history lesson on a political website? Honestly, what's the benefit of reading your post outside of purely historical interest.
Again, and it's clear to everyone here, you're attempting to justify racism by "historical context".
This post was edited on 8/27/18 at 8:48 am
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