re: A prayer to SATAN.

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You claim obedience is just the "fruit" of salvation rather than a requirement, which is exactly how your Pauline cult allows people to keep lying, stealing, and hoarding wealth while checking a box that says "saved." You are the one who looks in the mirror and sees your own fake righteousness. I look past your book, past your idols, and your cheap theological bypass, and that upsets you.

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Good, glad we got this cleared up.

The truth is that you are dividing those laws based entirely on your own bias. The rules about stoning neighbors, planting crops, and wearing mixed fabrics were all just the cultural laws of men from a specific time period. They are completely separate from the basic commandments.

The basic commandments are universal moral laws that stand on their own logical merit. They are the fundamental requirements for any peaceful society to exist. You cannot have a society without theft if you allow people to remain thieves.

When Jesus said his burden is light, he meant that true understanding makes keeping those basic moral laws natural. It's also said in the OT, which you disagreed with me on - understanding have all those who keep the commandments. It is only a heavy burden if a person's heart is hard and they are desperately looking for a loophole to avoid being a good person.

You claim I am laying burdens on people, but I am just pointing out the basic physics of a clean society. You are the one selling a cheap illusion. You tell people they can carry their greed and dishonesty all the way into heaven just by hiding behind Paul's letters and a blood sacrifice. That is not a light burden. It is just a license to remain corrupt.

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You just proved my point completely. You admitted that if that rich man walked into your church, you would tell him to say a prayer and "believe in Jesus for forgiveness", but you still wouldn't tell him to sell his things and give to the poor. You would let him keep his idols and his wealth, completely contradicting what Jesus actually demanded of him. You are substituting physical obedience with a mental exercise.

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did you just gloss right over what I said?

I said he would be required to repent of his sin, including his idolatry of his wealth. Did you miss that part? Here, I'll quote it for you in case you missed it:

"I would tell him to repent of his sins, including his idolatry, and believe in Jesus for forgiveness."

Now that we've cleared that up, please stop lying about me. You keep claiming that I do not care about repentance and obedience. That's false. I do, because God cares about that. I'm telling you that obedience cannot merit salvation, so obedience is a fruit of salvation gained by Christ through faith in Him, not by our good works (obedience). We respond to what Christ has done with obedience and repentance out of thankfulness for what He has done for us, not to merit something on our own.

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Furthermore, saying Jesus wanted him to keep the law "perfectly" to show him he couldn't do it is a desperate invention to protect your loophole. Jesus didn't play mind games. When the man asked what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus told him to keep the commandments and sell his possessions.

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It wasn't a mind game. He knew that the rich man wasn't interested in giving up his wealth. He noted that by his first question: what must he do to be saved. The man even betrayed his legalism in his response, that he had kept all of the law from his birth. He thought he had obeyed perfectly, which he hadn't, so Jesus took him to the first commandment.

Do you even recognize the correlation between what Jesus commanded and the first commandment? The first commandment is about not being an idol worshiper, and the man didn't follow Jesus because he loved his money too much. That was idolatry.

So no, that's not some invention to protect a loophole. Jesus even explained it in the following verses by saying that the rich trust in their wealth. That's what idolatry is. You are the blind one who can't see it.

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You claim obedience is just the "fruit" of salvation rather than a requirement, which is exactly how your Pauline cult allows people to keep lying, stealing, and hoarding wealth while checking a box that says "saved." You are the one who looks in the mirror and sees your own fake righteousness. I look past your book, past your idols, and your cheap theological bypass, and that upsets you.

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OK, it's time to show you exactly where you are wrong about Paul. You continue to claim that Paul hated the law, hated obedience, and thought it was fine and dandy to keep on sinning without consequence. You are wrong, and you are ignorant. I'll try to help you out. Here are just a few verses that prove my point:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:19-21: “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Ephesians 5:3-5 "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

Romans 6:1-2: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

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You can not be a thief and live in a society without theft. No matter how much you want to pretend blood and everything else, that is the reality.

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Jesus washes away our sins, and once we die, we are glorified, and all sinful corruption is removed from our souls so that we can stand before God clean, clothed in Christ's righteousness. That's only if you are washed clean by Jesus' blood for the forgiveness of sins.

You deny that God is just and holy. You believe He is fine with sin as long as you just try harder next time. He just ignores what came before. That is not a just and holy god. That is a capricious god who allows sinful creatures in its presence.

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The truth is that you are dividing those laws based entirely on your own bias

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Nope, based on God's word, which you reject.

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The rules about stoning neighbors, planting crops, and wearing mixed fabrics were all just the cultural laws of men from a specific time period. They are completely separate from the basic commandments.

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Those were applications of the 10 commandments to the nation of Israel, either in the civil society for keeping law and order in the theonomic kingdom, or in the worship and cultural separation of Israel in the midst of idolatrous nations that separated them.

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The basic commandments are universal moral laws that stand on their own logical merit. They are the fundamental requirements for any peaceful society to exist. You cannot have a society without theft if you allow people to remain thieves.

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Speaking from strictly a human perspective, you are wrong. You can have a peaceful society with a totalitarian regime that allows for targeted rape, murder, theft, and so on.

But you're right that the 10 commandments are fundamental and represent the moral law of God. That's what Christians have said for a very, very long time.

Do you keep the Sabbath in any form or fashion? Just curious if you think that's something to continue to keep. I do, but wondering about you.

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When Jesus said his burden is light, he meant that true understanding makes keeping those basic moral laws natural.

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That's not what He said, though. And, it goes against what He said. He said to come to Him for rest, not to look to Him as an example of how you need to work hard to keep the commandments. He said His yoke is easy. His yoke is not mere understanding that you need to obey, because that much existed in the Old Testament.

Again, if your position is correct, Jesus was absolutely unnecessary. He didn't need to live, He didn't need to obey, He didn't need to die, and He didn't need to rise from the dead. If all we need to do is obey the law, then we could have kept Moses and rejected Jesus. But that's what the Pharisees did.

No, Jesus' burden is light because He saves sinners who have no hope of salvation through mere obedience, and who have no rescue from the endless sacrifices. He came to provide rest and relief by resting in Him by faith. Your version of Jesus provides no rest at all, and He's completely unnecessary.

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It's also said in the OT, which you disagreed with me on - understanding have all those who keep the commandments. It is only a heavy burden if a person's heart is hard and they are desperately looking for a loophole to avoid being a good person.

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It's a burden because the law only condemns. It shows how we cannot keep it. it's why the sacrifices existed, to show that we are sinners and we need something or someone else to intervene on our behalf for forgiveness. God is holy, and He cannot even look upon sin. You would have Him not just look upon sin, but to forgive it arbitrarily.

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You claim I am laying burdens on people, but I am just pointing out the basic physics of a clean society.

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There is no spiritually clean society with the existence of sin, even if I disregard your flawed analogy that you keep using over and over again.

God demands perfection, and no one can provide that except Jesus.

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You are the one selling a cheap illusion. You tell people they can carry their greed and dishonesty all the way into heaven just by hiding behind Paul's letters and a blood sacrifice. That is not a light burden. It is just a license to remain corrupt.

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See above and stop lying. True faith will come with repentance of sin.

You need to repent and trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins, including and especially your works-based, pantheistic idolatry.

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Jesus is God, not a replacement for God. God is trinity, so to worship the Father is to worship God; to worship the Son is to worship God, and to worship the Spirit is to worship God.

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This is exactly how idols work. You replace God, then use it as a reason to disobey God.

That's the entire problem with idols.

Instead of using what Jesus says to find God, you turned Jesus into an idol and you worship that instead.

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Jesus in His human nature is subordinate to the Father, but He shares one divine nature with the Father.

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Everyone is a child of the father.

Jesus had understanding.

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No, you try to claim the authority of saying people must follow, but then will turn around and say it's optional.

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That's literally the opposite of what I said.

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Because you will NOT tell the rich man he must give his wealth to the poor. According to you, you can have the wealth AND still follow Jesus.

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Wealth is not sinful in and of itself. Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy and a follower of Jesus. Lydia was supposedly wealthy because she sold purple dye/clothes, which would have made her a lot of money. Joseph was wealthy. Job was wealthy. Abraham was wealthy. David was wealthy. Solomon was wealthy. On and on and on. Wealth is not sinful, so there is no reason to tell someone to sell their wealth if they have it just because they have it.

So the question is why Jesus told the rich man to sell his possessions? The answer is that Jesus wasn't against wealth, but against idolatry. It's why He said that if your eye or hand causes you to sin, that you cut it off. He wasn't saying eyes are sinful and hands are sinful and both need to be cut off as a general rule. Jesus even clarified that it wasn't money but the trust in money (idolatry) that keeps the rich out of heaven.

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So the 1st commandment is the one the free gift can't cover?

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The gift can cover all sin, but if you reject the gift of salvation through Christ alone, then you don't have the gift to cover your idolatry.

This makes me think that you haven't understood anything I've said

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You keep screaming that I am an idolater for not accepting your system, but you are projecting your own reality onto me. Your idol is Jesus.

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No, Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. You are claiming that obedience to the commandments it he way to the Father. You are contradicting Jesus.

Jesus claimed to be God and was nearly stoned multiple times for it. You refuse to worship Him.

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You have taken a person, equated him to the Father, and used his name to completely replace the actual commandments of God. That is the exact definition of idolatry. Throughout history, every idol has been created the same way. Men take a localized image or figure, declare that it is God, and then use that figure as a shield so they can stop obeying the universal laws of righteousness.

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Jesus claimed to be God. I believe Him. You don't. That's the difference. It's not idolatry to worship God, and Jesus is God. It's idolatry to refuse to worship God. That's what you are doing.

And no, I'm not replacing the commandments of God. I uphold the 10 commandments, including the 1st commandment to worship no other gods but the one, true, and living God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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Calling your idol by a holy name does not change the physics of what you are doing. You are using a human figure to bypass the actual requirements of a clean society. I worship the Father by pointing people to the logical blueprint of his laws. You worship an idol by using a blood sacrifice as a cosmic loophole to avoid those very laws.

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No, you worship this "clean society" you keep talking about. You don't care about the holiness of God, which is clear by how you keep making man and man's obedience the focal point of the discussion while I keep pointing back to God.

The chief end (purpose) of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. You seem to think the chief end of man is to focus on man's own obedience to make himself clean for a clean society. It's completely man-centered, which is a good tell that you are an idolatrer.

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I'm not going to bother with your Paul quotes. He says things that are true, but only to grab authority before warping it.

You do that as well when you talk about needing to keep the commandments, but then follow it with a free gift.

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What a surpise

You don't want to engage with Paul when he contradicts your false claims because it means you can't have that crutch any longer. If we keep up this conversation, you can just pretend that he didn't say those things and lie some more about him and Christianity.

Now that you've been corrected, there is no excuse for you. If you claim that Paul rejected the law again, you will be breaking the 9th commandment and will no longer be clean to enter your clean society (according to your false beliefs). So be honest and accept that what you said about Paul isn't true.

And no, I don't do what you're claiming. I'm distinguishing between meritorious works and works of thanksgiving. I recognize that no one is saved by obeying the commandments because we cannot and do not obey them perfectly. That's why Jesus had to obey them for us. I do, however, recognize that we are still to be holy as God is holy, and to imitate Christ through obedience and repentance when we fall short.

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Oh, so now you're magically going to be changed in an instant? If that was the case, there wouldn't be a reason to go through life to start with.

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Not magically changed. Supernaturally changed. That's what Jesus does when He washes us clean in glory.

So what's the point of obedience? To give glory to God who demands it. It's for His sake, not ours. He is the focus of all our being. He demands obedience and He has created us for that purpose: to do good works (obedience).

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The actual change comes from understanding and wisdom, which will transform a person so they keep the commandments and don't sin anymore. A theme that is repeated over and over in the bible and by Jesus himself. Not some magical brush.

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Do you claim to be without sin now that you have this understanding?

Jesus says you will do everything he does and more, which included keeping the commandments.

That those who believe will be given the understanding they need to keep the commandments.

You just look for ways to excuse corruption. That it's unavoidable. That is what those who lack understanding say, not those with understanding.

Because you do not understand them and because you are not good hearted, you can not keep them. That is a fact. And worshiping the idol of Jesus rather than looking at what he actually says isn't going to give it to you either.

Since Jesus we've had 2000 years of technological progress and the only spiritual progress has come as a result of the Christian church losing power which enabled the enlightenment age and the birth of our country.

And as our society declines, I see Christians who believe they are saved just like you, doing many bad things and you will tell me these people belong in heaven. And then you'll turn around and point to someone who has lead a good life and claim they belong in hell. Only you won't even take responsibility for that, you'll just claim God is always right.

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The problem with idols is that they replace the creator. Jesus is the creator. He is God and accepted worship as God. The Father even said Jesus is His Son and in whom God is well pleased. How is the Father pleased with the Son if the Son steals the Father's worship and glory?

Jesus is God, and is not an idol. You owe Him your worship.

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No, you replaced the Creator with Jesus.

That's what every single idol says - this idol is God. That's what it means to REPLACE. Instead of God, you give it to Jesus.

You basically admit to it, but then claim "it's different this time" because of Paul and your traditions.

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Jesus said to believe in Him. He accepted worship and healed in His own name and by His own authority. You either have to accept that Jesus taught that He is God and worship Him, or reject Him entirely. You can't look to Him as a good example to follow if you think He promoted idolatry.

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Jesus said if you believe in him, you will keep the commandments.

You don't believe in him, you believe he died for your sins. Huge difference.

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Only in a certain sense. God actually adopts certain people to be His spiritual offspring, and He gave us as a gift to His Son.

You are only a child of God in the most basic sense that He created you in His image. You are not an heir of eternal life as a spiritual child unless you are adopted through Jesus Christ. Repent and turn to Him for salvation.

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I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

And that is what I was also shown. It's in all, not just those you agree with.

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Yes, because He is God.

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No, because the father is in him. Because wisdom and understanding, not silver and gold, are the rewards of the father.

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No, you replaced the Creator with Jesus.

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Jesus is the Creator. He said before Abraham was, He existed. He said He is the alpha and the omega. He created all things.

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That's what every single idol says - this idol is God. That's what it means to REPLACE. Instead of God, you give it to Jesus.

You basically admit to it, but then claim "it's different this time" because of Paul and your traditions.

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Paul again... dude, I'm throwing Jesus' own words at you. I'm not quoting Paul except occasionally in passing because I know you irrationally reject Paul.

Jesus is the one who accepted worship from His disciples. He's the one who took on the names of God, the attributes of God, the honor of God, the works of God, and the seat of God by sitting at His right hand. According to you, Jesus is an idolater. If He is, then He isn't a good example. Are you going to stop saying He's an example to follow?

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Jesus said if you believe in him, you will keep the commandments.

You don't believe in him, you believe he died for your sins. Huge difference.

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I believe both things. You don't.

And Jesus still said you must believe in Him. He commanded it. That would be adding to the law according to you, right?

And you still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus is an idolater according to your standard. What are you going to say about that?

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I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

And that is what I was also shown. It's in all, not just those you agree with.

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Psalm 82 was directed to the leaders of Israel, not to all people without distinction. Israel was called God's children many times, because they were His covenantal children.

You reject Jesus, therefore you are not His child through adoption.

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No, because the father is in him. Because wisdom and understanding, not silver and gold, are the rewards of the father.

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Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. It wasn't simply understanding, but a relationship that only the Father and Son have.

When the Father spoke of Jesus as His Son, in whom He is well pleased, that was a special declaration about Jesus, not all people. Jesus had understanding as God, not as a mere man enlightened by God. Jesus claimed to be God, afterall.