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Started By
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re: WWII buffs: let's talk about Germany's biggest strategic blunder
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:43 am to Darth_Vader
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:43 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
Spain had just come out of a bloody civil war and was in no position to make any serious contribution to Germany
This is why Spain stayed out of it.
Two front war with dwindling natural resources killed them.
1
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:46 am to cheesesteak501
quote:frick YEAH!!!
USA would have kicked the shite out of anybody. It didn't really matter what they did.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:47 am to GetCocky11
quote:
The war was lost when Hitler was unable to defeat the UK in the Battle of Britain.
Correction: Germany lost the war on September 1, 1939, the day it invaded Poland. There is simply no plausible scenario in which Germany could defeat the four major power allied against it: Great Britain, France, Russia and the United States. Hitler's undertaking was doomed from the beginning. Thank God.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:47 am to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
Haters WILL hate, as you know.
This. And I feel there is a bit of jealousy.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:49 am to LSUFanNTX
From what I've read, the biggest strategic blunder may have occurred on the part of the Allies in 1939 during the Phoney War after Germany invaded Poland.
The Germans seemed under-strength in western Europe along the border with France in 1939. If France and Britain had invaded right after the onset of war in 1939 when Germany was still fighting in Poland, there is a chance they've could have made it far into Germany.
The war could have been over or significantly shortened.
The Germans seemed under-strength in western Europe along the border with France in 1939. If France and Britain had invaded right after the onset of war in 1939 when Germany was still fighting in Poland, there is a chance they've could have made it far into Germany.
The war could have been over or significantly shortened.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:50 am to TigerPanzer
quote:
Correction: Germany lost the war on September 1, 1939, the day it invaded Poland. There is simply no plausible scenario in which Germany could defeat the four major power allied against it: Great Britain, France, Russia and the United States. Hitler's undertaking was doomed from the beginning. Thank God.
Maybe. Was it certain that the Russians would have attacked if Germany had not started Barbarosa? No one knows for sure, so lets go with a no for this scenario. Had Germany abided by the pact with Russia, that would have eliminated that front and use of resources. That, in itself, would have more than shored up enough for the ETO. And you kid yourself if you think that France was a major power...
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:52 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
pushed back the original start date of Operation Barbarossa from May to June. This delay meant that the Germans reached Moscow in a full blown Russian winter wile the Russians had time to bring reinforcements from Siberia along with evacuating a huge chunk if it's industrial capacity the safety of Urals. Had operation Barbarossa kicked off at the start of May as was originally intended, the Germans may have actually been able to take Moscow and force the Soviets to sue for peace. But by delaying it for that key month, they wasted any chance if victory they had.
So it seems like the or one of the biggest blunders wasn't invading Russia per se, but the timing of it?
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:55 am to USMCTiger03
quote:
So it seems like the or one of the biggest blunders wasn't invading Russia per se, but the timing of it?
There is never a good time to invade Russia, especially if you are fighting the UK in the West, and occupying most of Europe.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 8:59 am to Champagne
They had no choice but to keep them horse drawn because they didnt have enough oil to keep their mechanized equipment supplied as it was. Pretty much everything the Germans did after the first year of the war revolved around oil. Rommel was constantly hamstrung on having to wait for fuel in order to do anything. There was numerous battles that would have been different if the Germans werent literally waiting days for fuel so they could move. I forget the percentage but most of Germans oil was synthetically made by IG, once we started bombing it they really started feeling the pinch. Oil or the lack of it for the Germans mixed with Hitlers inability to take the emotion out of his decisions sunk the Nazis. That and how bad we played them when it came to DDay.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:00 am to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
There is never a good time to invade Russia, especially if you are fighting the UK in the West, and occupying most of Europe.
This. Their resources were stretched way to thin for anything more than what they did. And the world is lucky for that. It's safe to guess that had they not invaded Russia, Britian would be done and Europe would have been very, very hard to take.
All they had to do on the second part was continue hitting Britian's airfields and kill off the RAF. That would have left them defenseless. Then, encircle/blockade and let it wither. Without those staging bases, the US would have had a much, much more difficult time of air ops in the ETO. I have no doubt we would have won, but the time/price would have been much higher.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:01 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
A fully Axis Spain gives Germany control of virtually the entire Mediterranean, cutting Britain off from the Middle East, India, and the southern supply route to Russia through Iran. Game over.
It would have caused quite a battle at Gibraltar (again), but I don't know about this being dispositive. Spain wasn't as strong as Italy (at least on paper) and Italy was a net negative for Hitler.
No - you're part right and part wrong about the Russian thing. He should have taken Britain - THEN turned East. Maybe he thought we would stay out if he left the U.K. alone - maybe he sincerely believed he could ally with the Brits in the long run. In any event, not taking away the staging base for the U.S. (and the U.K. navy) before attacking the U.S.S.R. was probably the biggest blunder.
quote:
Doomed to failure or not, lebensraum was inseparable from Nazism, and therefore was not a blunder per se.
Beyond Austria and Czechoslovakia, he didn't need much lebensraum for the short-term or even mid-term. He invaded the U.S.S.R. for Ukrainian farmland and oil.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:01 am to GREENHEAD22
quote:
mixed with Hitlers inability to take the emotion out of his decisions sunk the Nazis
Could you imagine if Hitler had let the generals have complete control over strategy?
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:02 am to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
Spaceman Spiff
Thank you, Sir!
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:02 am to Jim Rockford
fricked with America
/thread
/thread
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:02 am to USMCTiger03
Like I said earlier, if they would have left Stalingrad until after the winter and used all there forces to take Baku the Russian front would have been dramatically different. It would have not only supplied Germany with much needed oil but also cut the rest of Russia off from its largest supply.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:03 am to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
Was it certain that the Russians would have attacked if Germany had not started Barbarosa?
I only draw inferences from actions and priorites - the U.S.S.R. was standing up 10 airborne divisions (all but 1, I believe, had to be converted to straight leg and thrown into the defense) prior to Barbarossa. What could Uncle Joe have been thinking of doing with 10 airborne divisions.....
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:04 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
A fully Axis Spain gives Germany control of virtually the entire Mediterranean, cutting Britain off from the Middle East, India, and the southern supply route to Russia through Iran.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:04 am to Jim Rockford
No mention of Battle of Britain?
This thread fails
This thread fails
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:05 am to jimbeam
quote:
No mention of Battle of Britain?
This thread fails
I mentioned it earlier, but it didn't catch on in the discussion.
Posted on 8/20/14 at 9:06 am to GetCocky11
It would have been scary to say the least but I still think we would have eventually won bc of the atom bomb, that is assuming we didnt reach a treaty with them or they didnt get one first.
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