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re: Why didn't a foreign nation invade during the Civil war?

Posted on 9/30/19 at 10:57 pm to
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106059 posts
Posted on 9/30/19 at 10:57 pm to
A little inside baseball here. Naval blockades were a key, though controversial, feature of British foreign policy. Thus they were loathe to interfere with someone else's blockade.
Posted by cave canem
pullarius dominus
Member since Oct 2012
12186 posts
Posted on 9/30/19 at 11:12 pm to
quote:


They remembered what happened last time. They've been our bitch ever since.


In 1860's had Great Briton fully committed to taking the US back by force they absolutely could have done so, their issue was they were too busy everywhere else for this type of all out assault.

They were far to busy expanding colonies in Canada, Australia, India as well as hundreds of other locations along with the just ended Opium war and uprising in India, the US just was not worth the effort it would have required.

We were almost at war with GB anyway in the Pig War but it remained isolated.

Anyone who thinks it was because they were scared is a fool.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106059 posts
Posted on 9/30/19 at 11:20 pm to
During the international incident mentioned upthread, cost of sending a fleet and troops was a major British consideration. There were only ~2000 troops in Canada at the time. Many more obviously would be needed for an invasion from the north. And most British warships were steam powered versus the still largely sail powered US fleet. While this would have been a major combat advantage, it was paradoxically a deterrent because of the expense of buying so much coal for a transatlantic expedition.
Posted by AbuTheMonkey
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
8719 posts
Posted on 9/30/19 at 11:39 pm to
quote:

Didn't UK have troops from Canada and Australia? Nz, India ? Africa


They did, but a few things:
1. Canada and Australia, even then, were much smaller population-wise than the U.S. The combined population of both in 1860 was about 4 million...or about 1/8th that of the pre-war U.S.

2. In both India and Africa, the locals were as likely to be adversaries to the British at that time as they were to be fighting in a British uniform. The British themselves had nothing more than an expeditionary colonial army that was almost certainly not prepared to take on an enormous and industrialized force halfway across the world. They were only able to send ~100,000 to the Crimea (only 1/3 the number of French) about five years before the Civil War kicked off. A force that size would have been swatted away by either side of the Civil War, and Britain needed that force much more badly elsewhere anyway.

3. The simple logistical feat of shipping, then equipping, then training, then keeping discipline, then supplying a large enough army to conceivably have decent odds of victory from that disparate and disunited a supply of soldiers was pretty much beyond any country at that point, even the British. The Union Army had 2.1 million men at its peak, and that's without taking into account that the 1 million or so Confederates probably wouldn't have all automatically been allies, either. It was as modern and industrial as any army in the world by 1863, not some ragtag colonial or tribal confederation.

4. The Mexicans had little interest. They hated each other more than they could have ever hated the Americans at that point, and they couldn't really do squat at the time, anyway. They just didn't have the capacity to transport a large and modern invasion force - including artillery, repeating rifles, trains, trenching materiel, field hospitals, telegraph lines, mines, and so on and so on - through northern Mexico and into the Southwestern U.S. at that point.
This post was edited on 10/1/19 at 12:27 am
Posted by Boo Krewe
Member since Apr 2015
9810 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 2:14 am to
Thanks for input
Posted by Boo Krewe
Member since Apr 2015
9810 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 2:27 am to
Ottoman in 1918 held off British. Why could they not had a say? They had spirit maybe not techno
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71721 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 3:55 am to
quote:

Nobody cared about america. It was all wide open still.


Uh...no. Great Britain and the other western powers had begun to worry about the staggering growth of the United States by the 1850s. We were the second largest industrial power behind Great Britain by the halfway point of the 19th century and were only getting stronger. Great Britain and France had a vested interest in seeing the Union dissolve during the Civil War because they saw in the United States a potential rival to their dominance of the world economy.

Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71721 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 4:00 am to
quote:

In 1860's had Great Briton fully committed to taking the US back by force they absolutely could have done so


Doubtful.

By 1865, the United States had nearly two million men under arms in the army alone. The Grand Army of the Republic was among the most well-equipped and battle-hardened fighting forces on the planet at that point in time, with some very solid leadership at all levels of command. Also...the defenses around Washington D.C. were the most formidable in the world and would have made Swiss cheese of any attacking force whether they be Confederate or foreign.

Posted by Tigris
Cloud Cuckoo Land
Member since Jul 2005
13226 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 8:17 am to
quote:

In 1860's had Great Briton fully committed to taking the US back by force they absolutely could have done so


Nonsense.

1776 populations - Britain around 7 million, the US 2.5 million.

1860 populations - US 31 million, Britain 29 million.

Taking the US by force with the logistics required was impossible by 1860. They also weren't scared of us any more than we were scared of them, for the same reason.

Canada is the wild card in this. The population was under 4 million in 1860 so not a strong base for coming after the US, but it could have helped the logistics somewhat. But if they try this they can probably kiss Canada goodbye. Not a smart play.
Posted by OLDBEACHCOMBER
Member since Jan 2004
7620 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 9:36 am to
quote:

the Ottomans


This is the answer.
Posted by Bronson2017
Birmingham
Member since Feb 2019
2215 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 12:06 pm to
Someone needs to make an alternate history novel about Great Britain invading. I would read that.

There is an alternate history novel Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove about the civil war but it is about time travel. An Australian supremacy type group time travels back to civil war to give Robert E Lee and the confederacy AK-47's to change the outcome. It is a fascinating read. Took a lot of flack and if I am not mistaken HBO tried making it a show but we all know why that didn't happen.

The guy also makes alternate history books about WW2 where aliens invade right in the middle of the war by mistake. If I remember correctly they aimed to invade at about the time we were in medieval times but landed in WW2 era and we pretty much give them more than they bargained for.

Book
This post was edited on 10/1/19 at 12:09 pm
Posted by TigerCoon
Member since Nov 2005
22476 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 12:43 pm to
I read a historical fiction novel where the Northern army was boarding British ships during the Civil war because they suspected they were in cahoots the South, (this really happened). In this history, Albert ends up having a heart attack and dying, so he couldn't calm things down. Albert really did die right after the Trent Affair-- the book just had him die a few weeks earlier while everyone was still pissed off. Queen Victoria goes nuts, blames the North and invades the North from Canada while the majority of the Northern Army is pretty occupied in Virginia.

The book is called Stars and Stripes Forever. I won't give away the rest.
This post was edited on 10/1/19 at 1:05 pm
Posted by AbuTheMonkey
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
8719 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 9:11 pm to
quote:

Ottoman in 1918 held off British. Why could they not had a say? They had spirit maybe not techno


Because engaging in a bitter defense on entrenched home turf compared to sending an expeditionary force halfway across the world to take on the largest modern army in the world at the time is like comparing an apple to Mars.
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85525 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 10:01 pm to
quote:

Why didn't a foreign nation invade during the Civil war?


The US did invade the CSA.
Posted by deeprig9
Unincorporated Ozora
Member since Sep 2012
76103 posts
Posted on 10/1/19 at 10:22 pm to
If foreign nations knew it was going to last 4-5 years, they would have invaded.

When it started, they thought it would be a glorified duel that lasted a few days.
This post was edited on 10/1/19 at 10:23 pm
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