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Posted on 10/21/21 at 8:19 am to cable
quote:
Germany was tops until they started using conscripts from other countries near the end of the war.
They started that in 1942. Army Group B in southern Russia during the Battle of Stalingrad consisted of the German Sixth Army as well as the German Fourth Panzer Army; but also contained the Third and Fourth Romanian armies, the Eighth Italian Army, and the Second Hungarian Army.
Posted on 10/21/21 at 8:45 am to Volvagia
I always loved Margaret Thatcher's quote: :They(Germany) may have beaten us at our national sport but remember that we beat them at their national sport twice in the 20th century".
Posted on 10/21/21 at 9:37 am to antibarner
quote:
My thoughts exactly, we could have shoved them all the way back to their own borders. Churchill saw it,and Patton did too.
Without the Cold War....maybe no Korea and Vietnam either.
I agree with what Truman called for the allies to do. Should the USSR start winning, do things to help the Germans sustain the war. Should the Germans start winning, do things to help the USSR sustain the war. I'd have been perfectly fine with not going over to Europe in either one of the world wars. Assist the Brits in defending their island and then just let the continent devour itself.
Posted on 10/21/21 at 11:21 am to 308
Things I learned from this thread:
1.) People believe they become history experts by listening to a podcast.
2.) Very people understand how advance and retreat affects your logistics. Also, very people understand logistics at all.
1.) People believe they become history experts by listening to a podcast.
2.) Very people understand how advance and retreat affects your logistics. Also, very people understand logistics at all.
Posted on 10/21/21 at 11:56 am to TigerDeacon
quote:
2.) Very people understand how advance and retreat affects your logistics. Also, very people understand logistics at all.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Experts discuss logistics.
That's been true since Rome, frankly, but increasingly true on the modern era. That's why force-on-force is, essentially dead. Rare circumstances bring conventional forces into brief contact since Korea, because logistics will win and both sides know who wins (unless closely matched, like the Arab nations and Israel, or more recently, Iran and Iraq.)
Posted on 10/21/21 at 12:07 pm to TigerNlc
quote:
What makes you think that? I have never heard that claim.
You're slinging around insults "lack of education", yet have not acquired a very basic, non-secret fact of the German use of methamphetamine?
It was widespread through France and then their docs/scientists pushed for restraint because the long-term effects were making themselves known.
Now, the drugs themselves weren't regulated as nearly as much as today, and many folks were familiar with over-the-counter amphetamine(meth seems relatively unique to Germany via Pervitan). The Brits were enamored of amphetamines for military applications, particularly the RAF and Royal Navy. They shared their experiences with U.S. military authorities.
While the use wasn't anything out of the ordinary, it appears far less widespread among Allied troops than German forces, again, through about 1940 or 1941 when Germany appeared to try to reel the use in a bit.
This post was edited on 10/21/21 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 10/21/21 at 12:22 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Basically, Patton was right. We should have finished them while we had the chance.
Fighting the Russians would have been a very, very hard sell to the US Army's rank and file and their families back home. Maybe an impossible sell. There was very nearly a large scale mutiny over the initial plan to ship the Army in Europe en masse to the Pacific, which resulted in the point system allowing men with the longest overseas service to go home. After four years of propaganda about "we're all in this together" with our Russian allies, now we're supposed to fight them. Imagine how that would go over to all the parents, wives and girlfriends.
And while the Russian logistics line was long, ours was even longer. We also had an ongoing ware in the Pacific to fight. Very few people knew about a potential war winning weapon. The general assumption was it was going to take at least two more years, an invasion of the Japanese home islands, and possible we would need Russian help to do it. Absent some kind of egregious Russian provocation, a continuation of the war in Europe wasn't in the cards.
Posted on 10/21/21 at 12:31 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Fighting the Russians would have been a very, very hard sell to the US Army's rank and file and their families back home. Maybe an impossible sell. There was very nearly a large scale mutiny over the initial plan to ship the Army in Europe en masse to the Pacific, which resulted in the point system allowing men with the longest overseas service to go home. After four years of propaganda about "we're all in this together" with our Russian allies, now we're supposed to fight them. Imagine how that would go over to all the parents, wives and girlfriends.
And while the Russian logistics line was long, ours was even longer. We also had an ongoing ware in the Pacific to fight. Very few people knew about a potential war winning weapon. The general assumption was it was going to take at least two more years, an invasion of the Japanese home islands, and possible we would need Russian help to do it. Absent some kind of egregious Russian provocation, a continuation of the war in Europe wasn't in the cards.
I agree. The only way a war between the Allies and a Russia would have happened is if it was started by the Russians. We still had Japan to deal with and had no interest in pushing east for any reason. As for the Russians, they were not going to start anything either because as I said earlier, the Red Army had suffered horrendous losses in the closing months of the war to the point their best units were little more than hollow shells. They were as eager to end the fighting as we were.
My post was just how a hypothetical war between the Allies and Soviets would have worked out. I threw in the line about Parton as a joking afterthought.
Posted on 10/22/21 at 10:35 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
Fighting the Russians would have been a very, very hard sell to the US Army's rank and file and their families back home. Maybe an impossible sell....
...Absent some kind of egregious Russian provocation, a continuation of the war in Europe wasn't in the cards.
I agree.
But there were a few angles to take here -- both as reality was presented as well as conspiratorial.
The PTB's usual False Flags should or could have been created in order to justify knock off Uncle Joe and the Reds -- especially since the Soviets were already physically and psychologically exhausted. Yes, it would have had to have been a major incident).
As (the assassinated) Patton theorized, there was no better timing at which to take decisive, victorious action against the Soviets. Dominant American air power, complete logistical and supply dominance, and completely snuffing out our supply lines to the Soviets might have made taking them out in a relative Cake Walk.
WHY IT WASN'T TO BE, IMO (some things never change):
Global Bankers. Corporatists. Bankrolled. All Operations. Controlled and Pre-Destined Future Political Decisions (i.e. creating "Iron Curtain", sharing A-Bomb instructions) and Timing.
(Ike gave away The Game when he mentioned the "Military-Industrial complex").
Posted on 10/22/21 at 10:37 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
The only way a war between the Allies and a Russia would have happened is if it was started by the Russians.
Yup.
And Patton knew that was how it had to go down.
The PTB disagreed obviously and permanently "discouraged" Patton from influencing others.
Posted on 10/22/21 at 10:45 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
I agree with what Truman called for the allies to do. Should the USSR start winning, do things to help the Germans sustain the war. Should the Germans start winning, do things to help the USSR sustain the war.
Sorta like what we did in helping balance the bloodshed between Iran and Iraq during the 80s?
quote:
I'd have been perfectly fine with not going over to Europe in either one of the world wars. Assist the Brits in defending their island and then just let the continent devour itself.
Problem:
America didn't know whether Germany would fully "devour" Europe after knocking off Britain -- THEN come for us; the theory was that it was better fighting them THERE so we didn't have to fight them HERE (gee -- now where have we heard that modern mantra??)
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