re: Washington National Cathedral removing windows of - well you know

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So i guess the Darth Vader gargoyle has to come down too...

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frick that, he's a national treasure.

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So i guess the Darth Vader gargoyle has to come down too...

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I swear I will lose my fricking mind if they take my gargoyle.

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The church installed the windows in 1953 after fundraising efforts.

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Interesting timing, a year or so before the beginning of widespread and organized civil rights protests. And that's just when it was installed...wonder when those efforts began.

Oh wait,

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They were installed in the beginning of the Civil Rights Era as a Go-frick-Yourself to black people who were starting to get a bit uppity.

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You keep on playing that drum of revisionist history tho to keep that false narrative playing in your head.

Prior of 1954, you can't show me any significant peak of civil rights activism for 30, 40, even 50 years prior to that point. It was always present. There is nothing different in 1952 on the subject compared to 1919, and likely a LOT less tension besides. So to point at this particular time as some kind of intended frick you is being an ignorant parrot at best, and a disingenuous hack at worst.

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These windows were not installed during the lifetimes anyone who knew the Confederate military leaders.

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But they were installed the same year that Eisenhower assumed the presidency, who later penned this when asked why on earth would he respect Lee:

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Dear Dr. Scott:

Respecting your August 1 inquiry calling attention to my often expressed admiration for General Robert E. Lee, I would say, first, that we need to understand that at the time of the War between the States the issue of secession had remained unresolved for more than 70 years. Men of probity, character, public standing and unquestioned loyalty, both North and South, had disagreed over this issue as a matter of principle from the day our Constitution was adopted.

General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens; he was thoughtful yet demanding of his officers and men, forbearing with captured enemies but ingenious, unrelenting and personally courageous in battle, and never disheartened by a reverse or obstacle. Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history.

From deep conviction, I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s calibre would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities, including his devotion to this land as revealed in his painstaking efforts to help heal the Nation’s wounds once the bitter struggle was over, we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.

Such are the reasons that I proudly display the picture of this great American on my office wall.

Sincerely,

Dwight D. Eisenhower

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You see, people with an appreciation and respect for history don't need to live it for it to have meaning. Because their worldview goes deeper than their direct connection to the subject and "muh feelz."

Now, run along little child, and keep on beating the drum of the oppressive white man because they told you to, instead of opening a book and deciding for yourself.

If you find anyone with a somewhat conservative bent within the higher echelons of Episcopal clergy, I'll eat a hat. This is completely unsurprising.

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You see, people with an appreciation and respect for history don't need to live it for it to have meaning. Because their worldview goes deeper than their direct connection to the subject and "muh feelz."

Now, run along little child, and keep on beating the drum of the oppressive white man because they told you to, instead of opening a book and deciding for yourself.

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Dude, I'm white and had ancestors who fought for the confederacy. My namesake took a bullet through the face from a Yankee and brought home a Union sword he snagged during a battle that I'm hoping to inherit. And I'm not sorry for it. But they died a long time ago.

The idea that 1953 was way before the Civil Rights Era is silly. Desegregation in graduate schools started in 1950, Brown v. Board had already made its way to the Supreme Court by 1952, and bus boycotts were already underway (in Baton Rouge, interestingly enough).

If you want to know how the US really felt about Lee after the war, look into why Arlington National Cemetery is located where it is.

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If you want to know how the US really felt about Lee after the war, look into why Arlington National Cemetery is located where it is.

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They took it in to their possession early on in the war and converted it into a hospital and graveyard. Now, they probably ought to have compensated him, but there wasn't really any way for it to reasonably go back to him.

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These windows were not installed during the lifetimes anyone who knew the Confederate military leaders.

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In that case, we should take down the Jesus statues

So you're saying they 'showed him' by making his house the site of greatest military honor in the whole country?

Except the full story is a bit more complicated and, dare I say, interesting than that

Sadly, we now desire to turn history into cartoon cliches, to fulfill whims and agendas of the passing moment. Congrats, I guess.

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Dude, I'm white and had ancestors who fought for the confederacy. My namesake took a bullet through the face from a Yankee and brought home a Union sword he snagged during a battle that I'm hoping to inherit. And I'm not sorry for it. But they died a long time ago.

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Your race or family history have no meaning here. I responded to what you actually said. It was stupid, no matter how many bullets someone else took.

You made an argument that the placement of the stained glass windows was nothing but a "frick you" precursor to the Civil Rights movement. I explained why literally every point of it was wrong. Don't go crying to your great-great-grand-pappy's memory over that.

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The idea that 1953 was way before the Civil Rights Era is silly. Desegregation in graduate schools started in 1950, Brown v. Board had already made its way to the Supreme Court by 1952, and bus boycotts were already underway (in Baton Rouge, interestingly enough).

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Do us all a favor and point out where I said "1953 was way before the Civil Rights Era." All I said was to sit there and say that the TIMING had ANYTHING to do with it was completely wrong. You can sit there and say the same exact thing if the windows were posted in 1924 and the conclusion would have the same exact connection with the evidence. It wasn't like the post war era had a massively different take on racial attitudes than the pre war era.

Up till King came along and stood up.

And he hadn't stood up yet on the national stage at this point in time, so to try to connect the motives with the placement of the windows with THAT would require some kind of racist precognition.

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If you want to know how the US really felt about Lee after the war, look into why Arlington National Cemetery is located where it is.

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In trying to crawfish your way out of the hole, you again show your ignorance of history on a unrelated topic:

The disposition of Arlington National Cemetery was determined during the war, not after, with the first military burial happening a year prior to the conclusion. There were pragmatic reasons for it, and yes, in-war politics did play a role.

But AFTER the war, the courts ruled that the US unfairly took the lands without due process, and the Lee estate sold the land to the US government for millions in present day dollars.

If you want to bring "Arlington" and "after the war" into the discussion, please explain to me how the fact that they buried nearly 500 Confederates, and placed a Confederate memorial IN the cemetery fits into your explanation of how "the US really felt" after the war?