re: The Atlantic: Waco Is Suppressing Evidence That Could Clear Innocent Bikers

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I've said from the start that anyone who took part in the shootout should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

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I don't know if I've ever seen you actually answer this question. Do you then believe that anyone that was part of the Bandidos, Cossacks or a support group should have been arrested and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law? I get what you're saying about the mom and pops but I don't know if I've seen you answer that question.

Sounds kind of like the Scott Walker witch hunt. Eerie times we are in. Power hungry, controlling assholes need to be cleaned out like the filth they are.


ETA: I actually appreciate the gag order, because too often nowadays the public gets a hold of small bits of information in a case and spin it to something its not. Im glad they are keeping the case under wraps until the legal system has time to come to a reasonable verdict. However, I do see some shady dealings occurring. I do think the head of the grand jury should be replaced. I also do not think 177 people had something to do with this.

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Just saying that while I think a lot of people are in line with you on the shadiness here, people are going to push back on the "it could happen to anyone."

While I understand and appreciate your point, most people are not involved in a hobby that at its very core has criminal activity (even if the majority of people are not involved in such). There is no question that 1%er MCs have driven the public perception and culture of bikers, regardless of their involvement or distance from those groups. Also, as discussed at length in these threads, they tend to maintain some central control/influence over a lot of COCs. Most of this shite I've learned from you, BTW.

Anyway, this isn't going to happen to your photography meeting, or your Auburn Alumni club meeting, or my fly fishing club outing.

I do agree that innocent people are getting wrapped up in this and I don't think "well they should know better than to be around 1% clubs" is a valid excuse.

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Reasonable take on things.

The problem is you have these 1% clubs that are clearly criminal organizations. Personally, I have no problem rounding up anyone in any of these organizations or their support groups if they were there. To argue otherwise is to say that the Blood was just sitting in the car and didn't pull the trigger in the drive by and therefore shouldn't be prosecuted.

Regarding the others, I would add that it's not just the 1%er MC's that have driven public perception, but it is the voluntary willingness and completely free choice of the others to associate themselves with groups like the 1%ers. I try to picture how I'd feel if my son got arrested because he was going to a meeting that involved the Bloods and Crips despite the fact that he's not part of either. I think my first reaction would be "What in the hell is your dumb arse doing even thinking about attending such a meeting."

Having said that, totally innocent mom and pops that aren't part of those clubs should have their involvement closely scrutinized and charges dropped if they weren't involved in any way. I don't know that anyone would disagree with that. I just think it's hard to garner sympathy for them when they knowingly and voluntarily put themselves into that position int he first place.

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So you're moving to the woods to live in a cave then?

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I will carry on in my normal life and I promise you the chances of me being in the vicinity of a shootout are astronomically small.

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Missed this one and would love to see it. Only saw the one from outside. Can you point me to where this video is?

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Nobody but the Associated Press has been allowed to see it. However, the AP did report on what the video shows.....

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As gunfire broke out in the parking lot of a Texas restaurant, dozens of motorcycle riders ran inside seeking cover and tried to guide others to safety, security video reviewed exclusively by The Associated Press showed Wednesday.

The video, shared by representatives of the restaurant, shows bikers on the patio ducking under tables and trying to get inside. At least three people were holding handguns. One biker was seen running with blood on his face, hands and torso.

The footage shows only one round being fired — by a biker on the patio who then ran inside.

Authorities have said the shooting began during an apparent confrontation between two rival motorcycle gangs — the Bandidos and the Cossacks. Some bikers have complained that police acted too hastily in making arrests and scooped up riders who had nothing to do with the violence.

Before the shooting begins, the inside of the restaurant appears to be mostly empty. Bikers and other patrons can be seen walking to the windows facing the parking lot where most of the shooting happened.

When gunfire erupts at 12:24 p.m., most bikers, other patrons and staff immediately run away from the windows and into the restaurant's interior. At least three people can be seen holding handguns.

Police: Biker Turf Dispute Erupted Into ShootoutPlay videoPolice: Biker Turf Dispute Erupted Into Shootout
One camera angle shows bikers running into the men's bathroom. When there's no space left in the bathroom, they dash toward the kitchen.

Another camera angle, on the far side of the restaurant from the gunfire, shows patrons who are not wearing biker gear crawling behind tables toward the kitchen. At least three bikers appear to be gesturing for the patrons to crawl to safety.

None of the nine video angles shows the parking lot.

Only one angle, taken from inside a back office in the restaurant, had audio. At 12:24 p.m., a woman is heard screaming, "Oh my God!" That's followed by multiple cries of "Get back!" Two minutes later, three gunshots are heard. It's not clear who fired.

Video shows police with assault rifles entering the front door at about the same time. As two officers enter, bikers can be seen lying on the floor with their hands spread.

Before the shooting, at least 20 members of the Cossacks gang can be seen on the patio. Members of the Scimitars, Boozefighters and Leathernecks can also be seen on the tape. While no Bandidos are immediately visible, police and one member of that biker gang have said some of their members were at the event.

The AP was shown the video by representatives of the Twin Peaks franchise, who have said the fighting began outside the restaurant, not inside as police have previously said. The franchise did not release the video publicly, citing the ongoing investigation.

Waco police spokesman Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said police have the video, but he had not seen it and would not discuss its contents.

Authorities on Sunday swept up around 170 bikers who descended on the restaurant. Among those arrested was Theron Rhoten, who had just pulled into the parking lot on his vintage Harley chopper when the bullets started flying.

Rhoten showed up at the Twin Peaks restaurant for a regional motorcycle club meeting. But, according to his wife, he soon found himself in the middle of a deadly shootout involving scores of other bikers.

Katie Rhoten said her husband ran for cover and was later arrested, along with motorcycle-riding friends and other "nonviolent, noncriminal people."

"He's good to his family," she said. "He doesn't drink. He doesn't do drugs. He doesn't party. He's just got a passion for motorcycles."

Police have said that all those arrested were part of criminal motorcycle gangs, but only five of the nine people killed had criminal histories in Texas, based on court records and a search of their names in a database maintained by the Texas Department of Public Safety.

In addition, Manuel Isaac Rodriguez was arrested in 2010 and served probation for unlawfully carrying a weapon at a bar in Lewisville.

Police have acknowledged firing on armed bikers, but it is not clear how many of the dead were shot by gang members and how many were shot by officers.

View galleryA Waco police officer collects empty water bottles …
A Waco police officer collects empty water bottles during an investigation at Twin Peaks restaurant, …
Authorities have said the gathering of five biker groups was to resolve a dispute over turf. Some bikers dispute that, saying the meeting was organized to discuss laws protecting motorcycle riders and other subjects.

Katie Rhoten said her husband, a mechanic from Austin, called her from jail and said that he and two other members of Vise Grip motorcycle club ducked and ran for cover as the violence raged around them.

The arrested bikers have all been charged with engaging in organized crime and each is being held on $1 million bonds.

The eight members of Theron Rhoten's group, the Vise Grip Club, specialize in building and riding vintage and antique motorcycles, particularly pre-1970 Harley Davidson big twin choppers, according to spokesman Brian Buscemi.

Buscemi said the bimonthly meetings have been happening for 18 years.

View galleryA Waco police officer takes down crime scene tape, …
A Waco police officer takes down crime scene tape, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, as they re-open Central …
"Yes, there was a problem at this scene, and it was absolutely horrific," he said. "But there just also happened to be a significant amount of people there who had nothing to do with it."

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LINK

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I will carry on in my normal life and I promise you the chances of me being in the vicinity of a shootout are astronomically small.

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I'm sure everyone in the busy shopping center in Waco where this happened thought the same thing.

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For the truly, truly innocent, it is a clusterfrick and the legal system will redress that as well. Granted, it's after the fact. At the same time, in this situation, I get the feeling for the need to round up whoever is there and sort it out later so that things didn't continue or escalate or migrate down the road. Tough spot and with blood already being spilled.

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I can see detaining everyone while the crime scene is sorted and they determine who was involved and who wasn't. This should take no more than a few hours, one day at the most. The problem though is the cops never did this, they just rounded up all the bikers there, charged them all with murder, and put a million dollar bail on all of them. They made no effort to see who was involved in anything, they just assumed anyone who looked like a biker was involved and thus they rounded them all up.

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Another question I don't know if I've seen the answer to. Did every single biker present get arrested or were some not even arrested?

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From everything I've read, they arrested them all. In fact, they even arrested people who showed up AFTER the whole thing happened.

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You were not talking about being arrested

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Yes I was originally unitl you tried to turn shite around and twist it in an effort to be correct. My original repsonse...

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If they can do this to them, they can do it to anyone, including you.

Doubtful because I am 100% positive that I will never be in a situation where myself or anyone I am associated with are involved in a shootout.

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Hence I will never be arrested for it.

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Furthermore, considering the number of shootouts that take place in this country almost daily and compare that to the fact this is the only major biker public shootout in a looong time, I'd say that if you ever are in the vicinity of a shootout bikers would not even be involved to start with.

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Doesn't matter. Me nor anyone I am associated with will ever be involved in a shootout so again ZERO chance I am ever wrongfully accused. Not sure why the frick you can't grasp that.

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People are wrongly accused of things every day.

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"Things" leaves a pretty broad range. We are specifically talking about being accused of murder in a shootout though. You can't keep moving the goal post. Make up your mind.