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re: Spinoff: What should constitute manliness?
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:03 pm to Bayou Sam
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:03 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
I don't think there any essential differences between women and men.
to clarify, you don't think men and women have different levels of estrogen, different levels of testosterone, and different bone densities?
1
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:05 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
Frankly, I don't know many spineless people. Do you?
i know plenty, as long as we're talking about being weak or cowards
i've had to do a lot of work in this area in particular. 18 year old SFP was purely spineless. a total pussy
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:07 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
It's also worth pointing out that the male fear of being emasculated by women usurping the place of men is very ancient. E.g., the myth of the Amazons.
well yeah. it means you're truly a beta in the pack of a woman is stronger than you. that's a severe genetic/physiological defect
this is not some telling thing. being weaker than women, especially in a more primitive culture that involves a lot of H2H combat, is a bad thing
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:11 pm to kingbob
Having good dick game. Everything else falls in line once you accomplish that.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:11 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
Finally, the early evolutionary history of human beings is very dubiously connected to contemporary human nature.
If selective forces created such a large physical dimorphism, isnt it logical to think there is a high likelihood of sexual differences in how the brain works and interacts with the environment (and other individuals)? "Human nature" as you put it cant be isolated from the same selective forces that molded our bodies.
quote:
It also need to be pointed out that the "hardware" of the human mind around stopped evolving ca. 100000 years ago
well this is almost surely false (evolution doesnt "stop"), although the differences in that fairly short amount of time might be undetectable by us.
In any case, the sexual dimorphism I'm referring to took place earlier in the mammalian lineage than Homo sapiens origin.
This post was edited on 12/31/14 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:49 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
to clarify, you don't think men and women have different levels of estrogen, different levels of testosterone, and different bone densities?
The question is not whether there are phenomenal differences. The question is whether there are essential differences. Estrogen and testosterone levels are often determined by cultural factors, for instance.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 2:57 pm to TigerRad
quote:
If selective forces created such a large physical dimorphism, isnt it logical to think there is a high likelihood of sexual differences in how the brain works and interacts with the environment (and other individuals)? "Human nature" as you put it cant be isolated from the same selective forces that molded our bodies.
Agreed, but when you're dealing with human minds and passions things get much murkier. We have to remember that one counter-example disproves any statement regarding universals or essences. Given the remarkable variety of gender configurations throughout human cultures, it seems to me much much safer to take the side of caution and skepticism when thinking about gender essence.
quote:
well this is almost surely false (evolution doesnt "stop"), although the differences in that fairly short amount of time might be undetectable by us.
In any case, the sexual dimorphism I'm referring to took place earlier in the mammalian lineage than Homo sapiens origin.
Sure, but human beings have changed enormously in the last 100000 years. This is because human nature has produced human culture, which isn't reducible to the hardware. We might even say that human culture (or nurture, if you like) has changed human nature. The difference between nature and culture gets really messy really quick when you move from abstractions to concrete qualities and tendencies of human beings.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:02 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i've had to do a lot of work in this area in particular. 18 year old SFP was purely spineless. a total pussy
Sure, but I think we need to suspend judgment on a person's character until after they've reached maturity.
And again, being weak or even a coward takes many forms. The most successful businessman I know out of my peer group is also the most physically weak.
What may be a vice in one circumstance may wind up being a virtue in others. To take an obvious example,
"being honorable" and having a code of behavior may be a good rule of thumb for manliness, but in warfare it is extremely glorious to deceive the enemy.
Machiavelli is very good on this: LINK
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
Where does facial bone structure fall into the equation?
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:16 pm to CadesCove
A man wouldn't give a shite about what another mans wears much less post about it on a message board
also having a penis
also having a penis
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:18 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
We have to remember that one counter-example disproves any statement regarding universals or essences
huh?
If a female CEO becomes a captain of industry by being more aggressive and innovative than her male competitors, that doesn't disprove a general statement like "on average, men are better at running a business than women". It would take a much larger sample size to disprove such a statement.
quote:
variety of gender configurations
Similarly, the existence of a culture in which the females tend to hunt and protect while the males nurture the young and do domestic duties would do little to contravene the overwhelming majority of human history.
quote:
human beings have changed enormously in the last 100000 years
Well, we know a lot more stuff than they did. That's culture. How has our nature changed?
quote:
The difference between nature and culture gets really messy really quick when you move from abstractions to concrete qualities and tendencies of human beings.
I believe science can sort this out pretty well. There are scores of good controlled studies showing gender differences in everything from neurotransmitter levels to behavior and cognitive reasoning, from in utero to late in life.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:20 pm to CadesCove
quote:
Where does facial bone structure fall into the equation?
that's a discussion for Alpha v Beta
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:23 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
Estrogen and testosterone levels are often determined by cultural factors, for instance.
determined is way too strong. shifted from the norm is more accurate
i'll give an absolute statement: no woman can ever develop this body
let alone develop it into her 40s/50s
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i'll give an absolute statement: no woman can ever develop this body
bullshite.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:27 pm to TigerRad
quote:=/= there are essential / natural differences between men and women. And how would you prove that statement anyway?
"on average, men are better at running a business than women"
quote:
Similarly, the existence of a culture in which the females tend to hunt and protect while the males nurture the young and do domestic duties would do little to contravene the overwhelming majority of human history.
Again, if there is one society that has women hunting and men performing domestic duties, then it is not true that men hunt and women perform domestic duties by nature. In just the same way, if there is one homosexual man, it is not true that men are heterosexual by nature.
quote:
Well, we know a lot more stuff than they did. That's culture. How has our nature changed?
We don't just know a lot more than they did. Our desires, passions, habits, practices and so forth have all changed (the software). This is why parsing out what is natural and what is cultural is so difficult.
quote:
I believe science can sort this out pretty well. There are scores of good controlled studies showing gender differences in everything from neurotransmitter levels to behavior and cognitive reasoning, from in utero to late in life.
As I said in a previous post, I'm not denying that there are visible tendencies in individuals that can be sorted according to visible gender. I'm denying that there is an essential link between cultural gender and biological sex.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:29 pm to kingbob
How well you treat a woman
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:30 pm to kingbob
quote:
Spinoff: What should constitute manliness?
Not having to ask the internet what manliness is
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:33 pm to Bayou Sam
quote:
I'm denying that there is an essential link between cultural gender and biological sex.
then why are men within each culture larger than women?
why are women incapable of producing testosterone at levels of men?
are you claiming somehow arnold's socialization allowed him to reach this level of muscularity? or more importantly, that socialization and culture has kept women from ever reaching that?
This post was edited on 12/31/14 at 3:34 pm
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:35 pm to VetteGuy
Honor, commitment, integrity.
Word is bond.
Word is bond.
Posted on 12/31/14 at 3:39 pm to SlowFlowPro
No, I'm not claiming that. I am denying that there is an "essential male instinct" to, say, bulk up like Arnold, or be a captain of industry, or to be a great warrior, or whatever a certain configuration of gender suggests is typically masculine.
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