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re: Southern Baptist Convention: IVF is a sin
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:56 am to chRxis
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:56 am to chRxis
quote:So you're using reason to determine a value judgement. The problem is, for you, that it's still a value judgement, which isn't scientific. It's religious in nature.
logic and reason
Or, suppose you were right, when in history have we been able to do what you are proposing we should do and the thing, whatever it is, remains objective and dispassionate?
2
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:57 am to StrongOffer
quote:
There is an objective source of morality
again, logic and reason...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:58 am to bayoubengals88
quote:
The problem is, for you, that it's still a value judgement, which isn't scientific. It's religious in nature.
Why do you think that something must be religious if it isn't scientific?
That's such a weird world view.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:58 am to chRxis
quote:Using logic and reason only points to an objective morality. Even atheists live as if there is an objectove moral code
again, logic and reason...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:59 am to tigerfoot
quote:Just because they deny God doesn't mean that he denies them.
Two of the best people I know on this planet are deniers of God.
quote:Of course it's not exclusive to Christians. That would be a silly thing to say, which is why it's not at all what I stated.
Being moral or being good is not linked or exclusive to Christians.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:59 am to TigerDeacon
quote:
You are using one circumstance to condemn a practice that allows people that want a child no matter what the gender.
Not really. It just opened my eyes to how contrary to a consistent ethic on the value of life and humanity IVF is. The procedure may produce good fruit, but it is rooted in a practice contrary to valuing life.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:59 am to bayoubengals88
quote:
when in history have we been able to do what you are proposing we should do and the thing, whatever it is, remains objective and dispassionate?
humans have existed before "religion", especially before Christianity.... if we were unable to reasonably do the "good" or "right" thing, we would have died out as a species a long, long time ago...
do good or right is NOT an inherently "religious" thing, sorry bro... i ain't...
i get that's what you were taught, and what you believe, but it's simply not...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:59 am to StrongOffer
quote:
That's how we got to where we are in this country, the suppression of Christian values.
Is anyone keeping you from praying or worshiping? How can you not praise God? Bonus points for government actions, not disapproval on Facebook, or having to see things you don’t like. That’s not oppression, that’s simply life. Too many people these days confuse not being able to impose their beliefs on others for suppression. They’re not the same thing.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 9:59 am to low end
quote:There are many words out there. What do you propose that it is?
Why do you think that something must be religious if it isn't scientific?
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:00 am to StrongOffer
quote:
The majority of Americans who consider themselves pro-life are women. I guess they just don't understand their own bodies, right?
The majority of the lawmakers proposing bans are men
And they definitely don’t understand basic biology regarding women’s anatomy based on previous comments they have made
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:02 am to chRxis
quote:Well, when you make a bunch of money off of people and their fear of burning in hell you tend to get a little lost. Religion is simple. It is personal. When its all over for me here, aint no one else going the gates with me to plead my case. I am comfortable with my spot.
apparently, a lot of your brethren didn't get that memo, as evidenced by the new SBC decree and some of the comments even in this thread
Protestants exist because of their belief that folks are saved by Grace alone, That it is sufficient. Now we have them wandering into waters they need to stay out of.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:03 am to bayoubengals88
quote:
There are many words out there. What do you propose that it is?
You're asking how I categorize the concept of "good"?
How do you categorize the concept of "apathy"? Is it religious or scientific?
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:03 am to chRxis
quote:I wasn't taught much... I grew up SBC. It's what I've immersed myself in for the last five or so years.
i get that's what you were taught
quote:That's fine. But when they did the wrong thing, you can bet there were consequences that were distributed by the group or tribe. Why? The Tao according to CS Lewis. The moral law of the universe.
humans have existed before "religion", especially before Christianity.... if we were unable to reasonably do the "good" or "right" thing, we would have died out as a species a long, long time ago...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:06 am to bayoubengals88
quote:Well, you actually said being good was immediately linked to Christianity.
Being moral or being good is not linked or exclusive to Christians.
Of course it's not exclusive to Christians. That would be a silly thing to say, which is why it's not at all what I stated.
quote:
Well, what is "good"?
That's immediately a religious question whether you like it or not.
And it is not. Religion is not the only lens to view morality or goodness, societies all over the world have vast, vast differences in religious teachings. They all define goodness pretty similarly.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:06 am to bayoubengals88
quote:
I grew up SBC.
so was i
quote:
according to CS Lewis.
CLEARLY the supreme source on the issue....
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:07 am to low end
quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
Ignoring the context of the letter, and selectively quoting doesn't make a strong argument. Jefferson is writing to comfort the Danbury Baptists who were concerned a the Congregationalists were going to outlaw their way of practice.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:07 am to low end
quote:I am.
You're asking how I categorize the concept of "good"?
quote:It depends on the context. But yes, my worldview doesn't really allow for neutrality. Science explains the how, religion explains the why.
How do you categorize the concept of "apathy"? Is it religious or scientific?
When you believe in nothing then you can't make sense of much.
When you believe in something, rather than nothing, than there's a good bit that you can sort out.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:07 am to chRxis
quote:
CLEARLY the supreme source on the issue....
frick the bible. The Chronicles of Narnia are where I derive my world views...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:07 am to bayoubengals88
quote:
I wasn't taught much...
you are right... you weren't taught, you were indoctrinated...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 10:08 am to low end
quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
- Thomas Jefferson
That whole Jefferson quote is discussing restricting the State's ability to interfere with an individual's religion, establishing a State religion, etc. Cherry picking "separation of Church & State" as though he meant people (collectively, "the Church") cannot restrict the State (or vote on laws that restrict the actions of individuals) as though they must have a non-religious or non-moral motivation for their votes is disingenuous.
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