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re: Robert E. Lee surrendered to Ulysses S. Grant on this day 157 years ago...
Posted on 4/9/22 at 2:45 pm to thejuiceisloose
Posted on 4/9/22 at 2:45 pm to thejuiceisloose
quote:
Would you care to elaborate on this point?
No. I've expressed my opinion and I don't want to hi-jack the thread.
0
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:03 pm to RollTide1987
quote:The Terms of Surrender were signed by Grant and Lee. The ToS formed a contract. Similarly, the states had signed the United States Constitution, and it formed a contract among the states.
[I]t was clear to Grant that the Virginia gentleman [Lee] wanted no part in casual conversation, being more concerned with Grant's terms of surrender. Those terms surprised Lee in their generosity. His men would not be imprisoned nor brought up on charges of treason; officers were allowed to keep their sidearms, horses, and personal baggage; and, most importantly, food would be supplied to the Confederates to satiate their empty stomachs.
The documents were drafted by Colonel Ely S. Parker, a member of Grant's staff and a full-blooded Senaca indian. . . .
The documents were signed by Grant and Lee shortly after 4:00 PM.
I'm sure Lee would have been surprised if Grant and the Union believed that they could back out of the ToS contract like the states backed out their US Constitution contract with the other states.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:11 pm to Salviati
quote:
Similarly, the states had signed the United States Constitution, and it formed a contract among the states.
The question that pro-unilateral* secessionists don’t often answer is how to reconcile the dual sovereignty placed over territory in a federal system. True, in a confederal system, the sovereignty of a system is the state’s and state’s alone. But in a federal system, sovereignty is dually held. Both the federal government and state government have equal claim to the territory of the state itself. (Their separateness comes from their rightful areas of governance.)
*In 1867, the Supreme Court upheld that states cannot unilaterally secede. But it leaves open the question of a multilateral agreement to secede between both parties (federal and state) and how it would be done. There should really be a lot more discussion on the appropriate mechanisms for doing so.
...And yes, I am aware of the Right of Revolution as stipulated in the Declaration of Independence, but even the writers of that document hedged their bets by saying revolution should not be the first, second, third, etc. course of attention for a redress of grievances...but the very last one.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:16 pm to UndercoverBryologist
The United States is willing to send its own citizens to die in wars to assist foreign secessionist movements, but would engage in the mass murder of its own citizens who dared do the same thing here.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:19 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:Link?
The United States is willing to send its own citizens to die in wars to assist foreign secessionist movements
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:23 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The United States is willing to send its own citizens to die in wars to assist foreign secessionist movements
Has the US government ever directly* assisted other secessionist movements around the world?
In South Vietnam, we recognized the legitimacy of the Saigon government as sole government of the entire territory of “Vietnam.”
Likewise with South Korea.
To the extent we’ve supported border disputes, the legal question at hand is which of the two governments we feel has the rightful claim to sovereignty. A related matter to the situation of the Civil War, but not really the same. Have we ever supported a subnational government’s unilateral right to violently secede?
Hell, we recognize maintain China’s sovereignty and not Taiwan’s.
*We do a lot of slick, under the table stuff. I’ll concede. But that’s more statistical noise than an actual trend.
This post was edited on 4/9/22 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:23 pm to Salviati
quote:
Link?
Lol. Ask the Serbians for a start.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:28 pm to Champagne
quote:eh. The CSA was a VERY loose association. Even Lee said that he was fighting for “his COUNTRY of Virginia ”. I doubt Lee gave two shits about LA, AR, or TX.
The Confederate States of America went down fighting hard until the end.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 3:35 pm to evil cockroach
quote:
I doubt Lee gave two shits about LA, AR, or TX.
You think Grant or any other Union politician did? The ancestors of the people who conquered your ancestors despise you. They think you're less than garbage and the root of every societal problem in America today, until you're needed to fight and die in a Middle Eastern war, then they'll thank you and your family for your service while you're in a flag-draped casket.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 4:28 pm to RollTide1987
If the south would have fought a gorilla war, they would have eventually won. Lesson learned. Next time will be different.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 4:34 pm to Bulletproof Lover
quote:gorilla war
If the south would have fought a gorilla war, they would have eventually won. Lesson learned. Next time will be different.
next time
different
Posted on 4/9/22 at 5:36 pm to Bulletproof Lover
quote:that war would’ve been bananas
If the south would have fought a gorilla war
Posted on 4/9/22 at 8:59 pm to evil cockroach
quote:
eh. The CSA was a VERY loose association. Even Lee said that he was fighting for “his COUNTRY of Virginia ”. I doubt Lee gave two shits about LA, AR, o
eh?
Your comment is totally unrelated to my comment. Your comment is a complete non sequitur.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 9:02 pm to LSU03
quote:
What a glorious day! It is just a shame we didn't execute him for his treason.
Lincoln should have been hung for invasion of the South. Booth took care of it though.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 9:12 pm to RollTide1987
Also on this day in 1865, the Battle of Fort Blakely began. Pretty cool little battlefield/campground just north of Spanish Fort, Al. Little know battle that was the final major battle of the Civil War and allowed the Union to finally take and occupy Mobile.
Posted on 4/9/22 at 9:39 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
RollTide1987
And guess what. Even though Lee surrendered, his Virginia home still stands on a hill above ANC. It will never be torn down. What those damn yankees never realized at the time, is that Arlington would be a national treasure. Lee's home is true tribute to the South. Frick those yankees. Lee, in the end, topped Grant. Frick those damn yankees. And what a lot of folks dont know...Lee was a descendant of GW's wife. Hahaha. God Bless the South!
Posted on 4/9/22 at 9:52 pm to LSU03
quote:
What a glorious day! It is just a shame we didn't execute him for his treason.
Shut up, stupid, and do some research before opening your pie hole.
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