re: Richmond Lee Monument going down

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Second, why can't white southerners acknowledge that symbols mean different things to different people?

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I'm from Jefferson County New York. If you go any further north you are in Canada. My people were Unionists. How lazy of you to just assume you know anything about me. My great great grandfather mustered in in The Bronx.

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Every time a statute comes down people who claim not to care or who "love history" sure seem to have pretty strong opinions.

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And then you casually slur me.
Infantile indeed. You should try to do better.

Here is a 2017 link where I discussed it like an adult. LINK

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It always represented reconciliation and the value of personal honor to me. Pretty simple. Not "yay Rebs".

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Not at all . I'm from New York . My maternal side served in a NYC regiment that was decimated . The Yanks were always " the good guys" to me. But not being a simpleton, and later living in Vicksburg ( literally a Civil War trench outside my window) I came to understand that remembering and honoring the Civil War dead was a powerful expression of reconciliation.

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And also a personal expression that my mind is capable of entertaining competing ideas that make black and white thinkers Highly agitated. I'm an American. But I remember history, acknowledge the humanity and complexity of my American lost brothers, and honor their sacrifice. I'm not retroactively endorsing their cause because I choose to be thoughtful, informed and respectful.

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SCLibertarian

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The Lost Cause rewrote every history long before statues came down.


If you're gonna attempt to use Orwell, make sure it's in the right context. Not one that backfires so powerfully.

The progressive movement precisely what Orwell predicted, he just didn't quite grasp how it would unfold..even my apolitical friends are absolutely disgusted by the neo Puritanism, moral fervor of the cult of progressivism.

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The progressive movement precisely what Orwell predicted, he just didn't quite grasp how it would unfold..

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It is uncanny how you can see things from 1984 coming to fruition 70 years after it was written.

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So because some people view them as symbols of oppression, that means they're symbols of oppression. But when others view the same symbols in a different manner, they're not correct, because their interpretation differs from yours. And because that interpretation isn't yours, the symbol isn't worthy of display. That's precisely a totalitarian mindset.

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No it isn't. Totalitarianism is basically when government controls everything. I'm arguing that viewing Confederate symbols ONLY as a symbol of healing, or honoring sacrifice, and ignoring the part where they project/reinforce the white power structure, is objectively inaccurate/wrong/incorrect. You have to ignore over a hundred years of history and pretend that there was no Jim Crow, no lynchings, no torture of blacks in public squares, no systemic discrimination, and ignore the circumstances under which a good amount were erected, etc., to come to this conclusion. The "healing" angle is a complete rejection of reality; a good chunk were put up during the civil rights era of the 1950s- tell me, how was that related to "healing" after the civil war?? But don't take my word for it: here's a link to a very short article on History.com that says roughly the same thing:

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

and another on the Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/the-stubborn-persistence-of-confederate-monuments/479751/

A google search will turn up plenty more.

But to conclude, nowhere did I advocate for total government control of anything.

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The idea that statues, in and of themselves, further a power structure is laughable. Human beings, the governments they create and the laws they pass determine the power structure of a society. And anyone steeped in Southern history knows that most Confederate statues were funded and established by women (Daughters of the Confederacy) in the South, at a time when they couldn't even vote.

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Laughable? Really? I think you're in denial here. Symbols are incredibly powerful, and plenty of societies have used them, sometimes to further power structures. There's literally dozens of books on the power of symbolism in societies. Also it's contradictory to state that the symbols are effective at conveying healing, brotherhood, or forgiveness, but for some crazy reason can't convey power, a warning, or social structure. Please note that I'm not saying that the symbols caused Jim Crow or racism all by themselves - those things WERE codified in the laws at the time the statutes were put in place. The monuments were ONE piece of the puzzle. And the fact that the daughters of the confederacy couldn't vote is irrelevant.

My parents were educated in the Mississippi school system, and I heard the same stories about the civil war, the monuments, the Old South, the Lost Cause, etc, that most of you did while growing up. As I got older and started to learn more about the civil war, I realized that a lot of the things I had been taught didn't make sense, were incomplete, or were simply untrue.

I think history is important, and the truth is important, and the fact is that for black people, there was NO HEALING after the civil war. White southerners suffered because of the war (which, I might add, they started), then took their suffering out on the former slaves - is their suffering not important, or worthy of healing? And the healing of their ancestors?

Can you imagine finally being freed from slavery, having a roughly equal share in society for twelve years or so, then have it all destroyed for the next hundred years?

I feel like I just read a sophomore Marxist deconstruction of Civil War/Jim Crow. Yikes. Like reading Zinn as an enthralled undergrad. It's almost like you've never seen the rows and rows of graves at a Civil War battlefield. And it's VERY convenient of you to clutch your pearls about the perspective of slave ancestors while completely ignoring that this is a CURRENT cultural provocation by The Professional Left to humiliate, defame (Lee as Hitler, really) bully and slur those who do not favor tearing down statues and burning books that offend your sensibilities. We are big boys, we can survive in a world that's not been completely vetted by the Committee Of Oh My God. Is there not a single sturdy man amongst you? How did we become this Maoist nation of doily-folders that can't tolerate any semblance of cultural disagreement without demanding the destruction of our historical markers? Are you sure you want to do this? Have you thought about where this ends?

Wow, that is an INCREDIBLE straw man that must have taken at least 5 minutes to build.

But since you're making assumptions about me, here's a little background:
I've seen the Vicksburg battlefield twice, the Port Allen battlefield once, and been to Arlington National Cemetery. Also fulfilled a lifelong wish and went to Normandy, visited the cemetery, and saw Omaha beach and Point du Hoc. I've read numerous books on the civil war and been to a couple of reenactments in Baton Rouge. My maternal grandfather was in the Army in WW2 in the Pacific theater. My paternal grandfather was 4-f and an ROTC leader at LSU. My brother deployed to Afghanistan and is still active duty.
I've worked my arse off since I was 12, ranching, construction, fighting fire for the forest service, and a crap ton of other jobs. I put myself through college and am currently working full time and putting myself through grad school.

I'm definitely not a Marxist.

I never advocated burning books.

I never advocated for the destruction of the monuments.

I don't favor the riots or the lawlessness.

I don't know what kind of "man" you are, I really don't care.

You are attributing ideas and statements to me that I never made, therefore I have no inclination to defend them. Feel free to address any of the actual statements that I made in my previous posts.