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Message
Question for a doctor or someone that knows the workings of neurotransmitters?
Posted on 1/7/15 at 2:46 am
Posted on 1/7/15 at 2:46 am
possibly Paige?? Not joking considering she seems well versed in what I'm asking... she sleep' maybe she could drop some layman's terms on this arse.... anyway
I'm reading up on MAOIs (Monoamine oxidase inhibitors), serotonin and SNRIs (Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor), and SSRI (Selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors). For you to have an idea where I'm getting these terms from.
Basic question first off:
After the "message" leaves the PREsynaptic cell and starts crossing the extracellular stuff in the "Synaptic cleft" to the POSTsynaptic cell where it drops off the "message"(whatever that may be) and then floats around doing some other various possible things, what happens to that specific neurotransmitter if/when it gets reabsorbed back into the PREsynaptic cell it was initially released from?
I know I suck HARD at explaining what's in my brain, I may be doing too bad a job on deconstructing what i've constructed it in my brain model wise without drawing some diagrams... I know
Maybe if no one knows what i'm trying to say but may know the answer if I explained it better, i'll break out my MS Paint skillz
I've got some more questions as well but we will start with this one since "I THINK" It's at least straight forward.
I'm reading up on MAOIs (Monoamine oxidase inhibitors), serotonin and SNRIs (Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor), and SSRI (Selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors). For you to have an idea where I'm getting these terms from.
Basic question first off:
After the "message" leaves the PREsynaptic cell and starts crossing the extracellular stuff in the "Synaptic cleft" to the POSTsynaptic cell where it drops off the "message"(whatever that may be) and then floats around doing some other various possible things, what happens to that specific neurotransmitter if/when it gets reabsorbed back into the PREsynaptic cell it was initially released from?
I know I suck HARD at explaining what's in my brain, I may be doing too bad a job on deconstructing what i've constructed it in my brain model wise without drawing some diagrams... I know
Maybe if no one knows what i'm trying to say but may know the answer if I explained it better, i'll break out my MS Paint skillz
I've got some more questions as well but we will start with this one since "I THINK" It's at least straight forward.
This post was edited on 1/7/15 at 2:48 am
5
Posted on 1/7/15 at 2:53 am to SuperSaint
Does this have to do with the myelin sheath?
Posted on 1/7/15 at 2:56 am to SuperSaint
Does this help?
quote:
A neurotransmitter must be broken down once it reaches the post-synaptic cell to prevent further excitatory or inhibitory signal transduction. This allows new signals to be produced from the adjacent nerve cells. When the neurotransmitter has been secreted into the synaptic cleft, it binds to specific receptors on the postsynaptic cell, thereby generating a postsynaptic electrical signal. The transmitter must then be removed rapidly to enable the postsynaptic cell to engage in another cycle of neurotransmitter release, binding, and signal generation. Neurotransmitters are terminated in three different ways:
* Diffusion – the neurotransmitter detaches from receptor, drifting out of the synaptic cleft, here it becomes absorbed by glial cells
.
* Enzyme degradation – special chemicals called enzymes
break it down.
* Reuptake – re-absorption of a neurotransmitter into the neuron. Transporters, or membrane transport proteins
, pump neurotransmitters from the synaptic cleft back into axon terminals
(the presynaptic neuron) where they are stored.[45]
For example, choline
is taken up and recycled by the pre-synaptic neuron to synthesize more ACh. Other neurotransmitters such asdopamine
are able to diffuse
away from their targeted synaptic junctions and are eliminated from the body via the kidneys, or destroyed in the liver. Each neurotransmitter has very specific degradation pathways at regulatory points, which may be targeted by the body's regulatory system or by recreational drugs
.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 2:56 am to SuperSaint
quote:
she sleep'
shhhhh .. she sleeping with me right now.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:20 am to CroakaBait
quote:Sorta, thanks
Does this help?
That explains what usually happens to the neurotransmitter after releasing the "message"...
quote:This is the breaking up of the cell by amino acids in the extracellular stuff it is floating in between the synaptics in the cleft.....
A neurotransmitter must be broken down once it reaches the post-synaptic cell
Are you a Doctor by any chance or atleast play one on here???
I know for a fact KosmoC isn't one (MD, I don't think unless a brand new one that I don't trust anyway), most of my reactions with him since 08ish have been positive, He has to be a learnt type fella.. but
"myelin sheath" is on the right track, it isn't what i'm looking for, I don't think. That has to do with possible reuptaking of the transmitter back into the PREsynaptic cell by being a "sheath" barrier type of mechanism... but that still wouldn't answer my initial question.... sorry if i'm getting off of the subject
Here is the question again: if either one of you guys can learn me somethin' " what happens to that specific neurotransmitter if/when it gets reabsorbed back into the PREsynaptic cell it was initially released from?"
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:25 am to SuperSaint
quote:
I know for a fact KosmoC isn't one (MD, I don't think unless a brand new one that I don't trust anyway), most of my reactions with him since 08ish have been positive, He has to be a learnt type fella.. but
"myelin sheath" is on the right track, it isn't what i'm looking for, I don't think. That has to do with possible reuptaking of the transmitter back into the PREsynaptic cell by being a "sheath" barrier type of mechanism... but that still wouldn't answer my initial question.... sorry if i'm getting off of the subject
I was just remembering back to my biology days and that was the first thing that popped into my head regarding reuptake, neurotramsmitters, synapses etc.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:28 am to SuperSaint
quote:
what happens to that specific neurotransmitter if/when it gets reabsorbed back into the PREsynaptic cell it was initially released from?
It varies usually by the neurotransmitter in question. But one of the posts above pretty much explains it.
You either can get reuptake by the pre-synaptic cell for re-use and/or breakdown, you can have peri-synaptic breakdown of the neurotransmitter, or sometimes when neurotransmitter bind to the post-synaptic receptor, the post-synaptic cell takes it in to be broken down.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:34 am to SuperSaint
quote:
This is the breaking up of the cell by amino acids in the extracellular stuff it is floating in between the synaptics in the cleft.....
Sometimes. Again some neurotransmitters bind transiently to the post-synaptic cleft and will continue bind and un-bind available receptors until it is either broken down by the peri-synaptic enzymes or by enzymes within the nearby support cells(glial cells) or re-uptaken into the pre-synaptic cell for either degradation or further use. Sometimes the post-synaptic cell will take the neurotransmitter in when it binds. Pretty much a repeat of what I said above.
quote:
if either one of you guys can learn me somethin' " what happens to that specific neurotransmitter if/when it gets reabsorbed back into the PREsynaptic cell it was initially released from?"
Sometimes degraded, sometimes re-packaged and re-used into vesicle ready for release. Drugs like cocaine is a common example of a drug that blocks the re-uptake of the dopamine receptor leading to an increase of the neurotransmitter in the synaptic cleft, more stimulation and the feeling of euphoria.
This post was edited on 1/7/15 at 3:35 am
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:36 am to Puffoluffagus
quote:Ok thank you
You either can get reuptake by the pre-synaptic cell for re-use and/or breakdown, you can have peri-synaptic breakdown of the neurotransmitter, or sometimes when neurotransmitter bind to the post-synaptic receptor, the post-synaptic cell takes it in to be broken down.
quote:
Puffoluffagus
Ok well let's just say you are taking an (SSRI) Serotonin-specific reuptake inhibitor, and the reason you are taking it so the Serotonin you do have stays in the Cleft/extracellular "membrane"(I guess I can call it that) and gives the NeuroTrans more exposure to pass the "message" to the POSTsynaptic, all because of a deficiency the patient has of Serotonin ... If when it is reabsorbed/reuptake back into the
PREsynaptic cell, it is reused again, ala released back into the Cleft/extracellular "membrane", Why would that be frowned upon for a patient that has a deficiency in seretonin? You would think that getting extra transmitters (the ones reuptake back into the PREsyn) would actually be a positive for the PREsy to be able to "Re"-release the seretonin back into the Cleft area. Instead of having the PREsynoptic cells be inhibited from reuptaking the Seretonin neurotrans and the enzymes degrading or whatever else they could do???
Damn I'm not sure if i'm making sense... I could never be a teacher
Not because of my "smarts" or my criminal record either... :/This post was edited on 1/7/15 at 3:58 am
Posted on 1/7/15 at 3:58 am to SuperSaint
You came to the right place to ask about psych meds.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 4:10 am to VanCleef
Oh no doubt....
To be fair, there are some smart cats that post on here that can give you some damn good info on just about anything. Just have to get through the garbage. But the garbage is usually the funny shite...
It's akin to Garage/Estate Sell Huntin' if you ask me.... The OT that is, or shite the entire TD.com/SECR... You know you can find something worth a shite if you look, but most of the time you can just rubbish through someone else's shite and have a good time doing it just killing time. Other times when you are looking for something specific, "Head" meds, you can usually find it...
To be fair, there are some smart cats that post on here that can give you some damn good info on just about anything. Just have to get through the garbage. But the garbage is usually the funny shite...
It's akin to Garage/Estate Sell Huntin' if you ask me.... The OT that is, or shite the entire TD.com/SECR... You know you can find something worth a shite if you look, but most of the time you can just rubbish through someone else's shite and have a good time doing it just killing time. Other times when you are looking for something specific, "Head" meds, you can usually find it...
quote:like going to an estate sale looking for a bookshelf or coffee table at an Estate Sale or Books and a hoodie at a Garage Sale.... you WILL find it
You came to the right place to ask about psych meds.
This post was edited on 1/7/15 at 4:10 am
Posted on 1/7/15 at 4:28 am to SuperSaint
quote:
Why would that be frowned upon for a patient that has a deficiency in seretonin? You would think that getting extra transmitters (the ones reuptake back into the PREsyn) would actually be a positive for the PREsy to be able to "Re"-release the seretonin back into the Cleft area. Instead of having the PREsynoptic cells be inhibited from reuptaking the Seretonin neurotrans and the enzymes degrading or whatever else they could do???
This has a multifactorial answer which is probably beyond the scope of my understanding on the physiology level.
Allowing re-uptake of neurotransmitters to be re-released is not considered bad or frowned upon. MAO inhibitors can partially work this way. MAO is an enzyme that is present in both peri-synapnatic cells for breakdown as well as it is present in the pre-synaptic cells for break down of some of the neurotransmitters that are re-uptaken. When you block this you make more of the neurotransmitter available both in the synaptic cleft and available to be released.
this multifactorial answer is that a lot of the drug of choice for treatment has to do with tolerability, safety profiles and efficacy. SSRI/SNRIs have been shown to have good efficacy with a relatively good safety profile. MAO inhibitors can also be efficacious but have more side effects and is less tolerable.
Often times for severe cases, these two drugs may be used together for a better(hopefully) effect.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 5:04 am to Puffoluffagus
OK thanks again, you're on a roll...
I had read up on MAOIs as well, trying to have a basic understanding. Hope i'm not coming off as an idiot... but I wanted to ask this (initially):
Yeah you would think with the way the drugs "interact" or whatever you call it with the body(physiologically) that these two would be teamed up together often.
For the record I've had my fair share of psych doc evaluations, starting as a grade schooler and have been on many of these meds one time or another, having never really "given them a fair shake". Looking into them and seeing the shite we(they) have found out about the brain and how it works just over the last decade and a half or so it's no-where-less-than AMAZING.... Keep up the good work Puff(if that is what you do/going to be doing for a living). The semi-sometimes-good lord has blessed you and us with the honey-hole that is the OT, full of patients...
Beautiful place...My now current ex (Huge... :/)is from Roanoke, which is further up in the hills but it's all pretty similar
quote:Didn't mean to say it would be "frowned upon" per se, as much as it meant that taking an SSRI you(the patient, let's call him tOTer) would be attempting to sidestep that happening more or less.
Allowing re-uptake of neurotransmitters to be re-released is not considered bad or frowned upon
quote:So was this pretty much the answer I was "half-assed" asking for initially
MAO is an enzyme that is present in both peri-synapnatic cells for breakdown as well as it is present in the pre-synaptic cells for break down of some of the neurotransmitters that are re-uptaken
I had read up on MAOIs as well, trying to have a basic understanding. Hope i'm not coming off as an idiot... but I wanted to ask this (initially):
quote:
Often times for severe cases, these two drugs may be used together for a better(hopefully) effect.
Yeah you would think with the way the drugs "interact" or whatever you call it with the body(physiologically) that these two would be teamed up together often.
For the record I've had my fair share of psych doc evaluations, starting as a grade schooler and have been on many of these meds one time or another, having never really "given them a fair shake". Looking into them and seeing the shite we(they) have found out about the brain and how it works just over the last decade and a half or so it's no-where-less-than AMAZING.... Keep up the good work Puff(if that is what you do/going to be doing for a living). The semi-sometimes-good lord has blessed you and us with the honey-hole that is the OT, full of patients...
quote:MCV Campus??
Richmond, VA
Beautiful place...My now current ex (Huge... :/)is from Roanoke, which is further up in the hills but it's all pretty similar
This post was edited on 1/7/15 at 5:14 am
Posted on 1/7/15 at 8:41 am to SuperSaint
Agree with most of the explanations.
In addition, the synaptic micro-environment is highly regulated and controlled by 'helper' cells (astrocytes and microglia cells) that support the neurons. They help regulate to amount of neuro-transmitters and make sure that the surrounding neurons are not activated by accident.
Thus, the SSRI's and MAOI's only increase the availability of the neurotransmitters by minute amounts. Too much release can actually cause neurotoxicity.
Methamphetamine and ecstasy both increase the release of dopamine and serotonin, one of the reason that burned-out meth heads acted alike is that they all have the same type of brain damage.
In addition, the synaptic micro-environment is highly regulated and controlled by 'helper' cells (astrocytes and microglia cells) that support the neurons. They help regulate to amount of neuro-transmitters and make sure that the surrounding neurons are not activated by accident.
Thus, the SSRI's and MAOI's only increase the availability of the neurotransmitters by minute amounts. Too much release can actually cause neurotoxicity.
Methamphetamine and ecstasy both increase the release of dopamine and serotonin, one of the reason that burned-out meth heads acted alike is that they all have the same type of brain damage.
Posted on 1/7/15 at 9:39 am to Puffoluffagus
quote:
Often times for severe cases, these two drugs may be used together for a better(hopefully) effect.
Doing this can cause serotonin syndrome which can be fatal.
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