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Message
1
Posted on 2/11/17 at 6:45 pm to mdomingue
I read it and have seen the CSB report snd watched the video. One relief valve for the system is a poor design that is not allowed in our engineering standards thankfully. OPerating procedures are only as good as the people using it.....and often they don't use it.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 6:36 am to double d
He was responding to my post discussing how someone put in paradise, la in google instead of paradis
Posted on 2/12/17 at 6:36 am to tgrbaitn08
He was responding to my post discussing how someone put in paradise, la in google instead of paradis
Posted on 2/12/17 at 6:45 am to diat150
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:06 am to mdomingue
quote:
There was a PSV that was taken out of service by isolating it/removing a lock that was intended to lock it open, according to that post. This is a common and approved practice. The valve is there to allow for testing/servicing/repair/replacement of the PSV without having to bleed the whole system down. That means there should have been very explicit procedures for isolating the PSV and/or removing the lock.
I do this several times a week. You turn the three way to line it up going to the other PSV and open the bleed for the isolated PSV. If no 3 way, open the valve of the PSV you're swapping to 1st, and close the valve of the PSV getting taken out of service. Not a whole lot to it.
The biggest problem is that a lot of times, the 3 way leaks by so you can't leave the bleed open, and will ultimately have to pull the PSV and blind it off all at the same time.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:20 am to double d
What happens a whole hell of a lot is that a planner under estimates a job on a turnaround or pit stop. He starts stressing at the time it's taking to get a piece of equipment worked on. He is catching hell from his bosses and flips that down to operations.
On paper and what they would want to hear in an interview at that point, is operations should push back and declare absolute safety over rushing the job. But there's a fine line between "safety first" and what really goes on in a plant. There is a perceived image of complete safety to the outside world, and inside as an operator you see differently. Because, dollar signs.
This is how most accidents happen. Rush rush. Hurry up and get that exchanger cleared. Hurry up and clean the tubes. Hurry up and pressure test it and get it back in service going forward. Hurry up so we can increase rates! That is what really happens, and that is how accidents happen.
Sure, it's the responsible thing to do to push back and slow a job down. But that will get you in a bind and have a rep with the people who approve your raises faster than I can type this thread out. Some plants carry all of this to a greater degree than others. It is my understanding that Williams is one of those. But most plants have at least a little bit of it.
On paper and what they would want to hear in an interview at that point, is operations should push back and declare absolute safety over rushing the job. But there's a fine line between "safety first" and what really goes on in a plant. There is a perceived image of complete safety to the outside world, and inside as an operator you see differently. Because, dollar signs.
This is how most accidents happen. Rush rush. Hurry up and get that exchanger cleared. Hurry up and clean the tubes. Hurry up and pressure test it and get it back in service going forward. Hurry up so we can increase rates! That is what really happens, and that is how accidents happen.
Sure, it's the responsible thing to do to push back and slow a job down. But that will get you in a bind and have a rep with the people who approve your raises faster than I can type this thread out. Some plants carry all of this to a greater degree than others. It is my understanding that Williams is one of those. But most plants have at least a little bit of it.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:51 am to double d
quote:
I read it and have seen the CSB report snd watched the video. One relief valve for the system is a poor design that is not allowed in our engineering standards thankfully. OPerating procedures are only as good as the people using it.....and often they don't use it.
Im pretty sure there were redundant PSVs on the system. They isolated the vessel from the PSV, simple as that.
Even if the vessel had its own PSV it wouldnt have prevented the explosion if it were isolated
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:53 am to RealityTiger
quote:
What happens a whole hell of a lot is that a planner under estimates a job on a turnaround or pit stop. He starts stressing at the time it's taking to get a piece of equipment worked on. He is catching hell from his bosses and flips that down to operations.
Holy frick you're reaching
Posted on 2/12/17 at 8:33 am to double d
quote:
One relief valve for the system is a poor design
Agreed, though it is not uncommon, particularly in existing systems.
Also, depending on the location and purpose, it is possible that the system in question falls under the control of the local or state governing authority rather than federal authority. Unfortunately, in Louisiana that typically has meant subpar regulations on safety and environmental controls. Most major operators will still follow the same recommended practices they do when meeting federal requirements, but it can be hit and miss with mid to smaller operators. If it was on the portion that falls under federal DOT control (quite possible if not even probable), those criteria are probably a little higher.
At any rate, if they had redundant PSVs that were both isolated from the system (as another poster suggested), that is a bad situation. Very placed I've work does not allow you to even place a valve at a common point between the vessel and the redundant set of PSVs
quote:
OPerating procedures are only as good as the people using it.....and often they don't use it.
This is true but that is still considered an acceptable way of mitigating risk. The safety culture set by the company and enforced by local management is critical for those procedures to work. When everyone takes them seriously, it's amazing how well they work. If you don't get buy in from the ground level employees, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 9:11 am to poochie
No I'm fricking not!
There's two worlds in the plant: there's the pretty storefront where safety is 1st over all else, take your time, money doesn't matter, blah blah blah. Basically everything they want to hear in an interview.
Then you get hired on and see the "reals" of it in the field, live and in action. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you're not in operations and working behind a desk in an office.
There's two worlds in the plant: there's the pretty storefront where safety is 1st over all else, take your time, money doesn't matter, blah blah blah. Basically everything they want to hear in an interview.
Then you get hired on and see the "reals" of it in the field, live and in action. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you're not in operations and working behind a desk in an office.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 9:37 am to RealityTiger
Reality is correct. Every company talks safety but very few live it. There is always some pressure to "make pounds" but at a few companies safety does not get trumped by a schedule. I've seen more operators let go in the last 3 years for not following procedures to a t than ever. They are waking up to the fact that no matter what, safety comes first.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 10:52 am to double d
I sit in meetings with upper mgmt and I can tell you that they stress safety over everything. If someone even hints at taking a short cut or trying to do something that anyone thinks is unsafe they will get called out with the quickness.
I guess some places don't value safety but most don
I guess some places don't value safety but most don
Posted on 2/12/17 at 11:47 am to notiger1997
quote:
I sit in meetings with upper mgmt and I can tell you that they stress safety over everything. If someone even hints at taking a short cut or trying to do something that anyone thinks is unsafe they will get called out with the quickness.
Most operators are too out of the loop to realize this. Blame it on bad communication from upper management or their unwillingness to actually investigate a safety concern.
All the dead head engineers actually work their arse off to prove things like t-min or viability. Believe it or not, they serve a roll and usually do it well.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 1:44 pm to notiger1997
quote:
I sit in meetings with upper mgmt and I can tell you that they stress safety over everything.
Who then put max fricking pressure on the front line foremen and planners to get maximum output from the workforce and equipment. Who when the pressure is felt and a worker refuses to do shite unsafe they then go down until they find soemone that will do it.
If a plant hand won't then they will call in a contractor to do the shite job. You know, cause contractors lives don't mean as much to the company.
No shite either. We had a contractor killed in our facility years ago. Our fricking leaders left our green safety flag flying that indicates no injuries. When I asked about taking it down out of respect for the dead. The response I was given was that the flag was for plant personnel, contractors don't fall under it.
The left the green flag up after a fricking death. Guy died for production. Not wanting to shut something down a few hours earlier than scheduled cost a kid his life.
Ftr I've been injured and required stiches... They treated me like a fricking criminal. It could have been way worse and was in no way my fault as the shithole structure we were on gave through after a refusal to condemn it. I'm glad stitches were all that was needed
This post was edited on 2/12/17 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 2/12/17 at 5:57 pm to thejudge
Passed earlier today, as we were passing they took off one of the hoses spraying on it and it looked to be almost out, just a couple small flames burning.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 6:17 pm to thejudge
quote:
Ftr I've been injured and required stiches... They treated me like a fricking criminal. It could have been way worse and was in no way my fault as the shithole structure we were on gave through after a refusal to condemn it. I'm glad stitches were all that was needed
no offense but safety starts with you. if you knew the structure was shite then you should have the right to stop work and pull the safety card. Human Performance tools teaches that everyone has the ability to stop work when they deem it unsafe, maybe some people would have bitched but your upppermanagement would have commended you for pointing out unsafe conditions
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:39 pm to thejudge
quote:
Who then put max fricking pressure on the front line foremen and planners to get maximum output from the workforce and equipment. Who when the pressure is felt and a worker refuses to do shite unsafe they then go down until they find soemone that will do it.
If a plant hand won't then they will call in a contractor to do the shite job. You know, cause contractors lives don't mean as much to the company.
No shite either. We had a contractor killed in our facility years ago. Our fricking leaders left our green safety flag flying that indicates no injuries. When I asked about taking it down out of respect for the dead. The response I was given was that the flag was for plant personnel, contractors don't fall under it.
The left the green flag up after a fricking death. Guy died for production. Not wanting to shut something down a few hours earlier than scheduled cost a kid his life.
Ftr I've been injured and required stiches... They treated me like a fricking criminal. It could have been way worse and was in no way my fault as the shithole structure we were on gave through after a refusal to condemn it. I'm glad stitches were all that was needed
And yet you still work there...must not be that bad.
Posted on 2/12/17 at 7:42 pm to thejudge
quote:
thejudge
Sorry you had that accident and the issues that came with it. Sounds like the people you worked for are scum.
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