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Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:21 pm to BigPerm30
If a likely cause is found early, say obvious evidence of overloading one area or someone comes forward with that, does that speed up the timetable?
Or totally a wait and see thing?
Or totally a wait and see thing?
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:22 pm to cgrand
(no message)
This post was edited on 11/5/19 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:24 pm to Martini
quote:
haven’t gone back through the thread but here is the pool from WWL
Looks like the one slated for the 14th floor.
Like ramrod said though, so much as-built stuff that isn't going to show up. And just because they submitted an architectural change to remove the pools doesn't mean they did or that the structural was changed.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:24 pm to BigPerm30
quote:
Judge will have to weigh the spoliation of evidence vs public safety. I’d venture to say, we’re talking at least couple months if not a little longer.
Couple months? This is going to take years. We are talking 150M in damages here. Nobody is going to pay for the demolition costs until the shite is settled. People are going bankrupt for sure. Demo costs alone in my guess will be 5M. This will eventually be a parking garage only, if anything. No way they rebuild a hotel or anything for that matter.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:26 pm to Martini
quote:
Is the composite decks being discussed is that Versa Floor?
No... generally speaking the steel beams can handle the tension and compression of bending.
To get some extra capacity out of the arrangement the steel construction manual allows engineers to say that the concrete deck will take some of the moment's compressive load and the steel beams will handle the remaining compressive stress and all of the tensile stress...
In other words by putting in shear studs you can get extra capacity out of the steel structure.
Eta: heres a generalized visual
This post was edited on 10/14/19 at 9:37 pm
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:33 pm to NYNolaguy1
quote:
This. This whole CF is why I make sure I am no where close to Mn, Vn, l/360, use Sxx rather than Zxx, and oversize everything.
If it is close I go up at least 2 sections so I can sleep at night.
No chit man... I think we've all gotten one (or more) of those "oh fack", chit your pants emails.
I'm designing a mat foundation right now for eight 3000HP fans with a 300ft stack and all kinds of other vibrating crap. I'm losing sleep already
... These gotdamn fans are 30ft tall each. Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:35 pm to BoostAddict
Just reading that gives me anxiety. I have a project going the construction at the moment and my stress levels are noticeably higher...it’s the worst lol
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:41 pm to LSUisBetterthanU
quote:
Couple months? This is going to take years. We are talking 150M in damages here. Nobody is going to pay for the demolition costs until the shite is settled. People are going bankrupt for sure. Demo costs alone in my guess will be 5M. This will eventually be a parking garage only, if anything. No way they rebuild a hotel or anything for that matter.
Dude, the project was $85 million. Demo will not cost $5 million. They likely won’t salvage the steel structure but it’s highly possible they can rebuild it on top of the 8 levels of structural concrete below. I’ve seen much worse.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:44 pm to LSUisBetterthanU
quote:
Couple months? This is going to take years. We are talking 150M in damages here. Nobody is going to pay for the demolition costs until the shite is settled. People are going bankrupt for sure. Demo costs alone in my guess will be 5M. This will eventually be a parking garage only, if anything. No way they rebuild a hotel or anything for that matter.
Big Perm30 has a point here. There is a public hazard by leaving that thing standing as is. At some point someone is going to have to do enough demo to make the remaining structure and cranes safe. The government may make that call and engage a contractor to do that in the meanwhile and seek damages from the contractor at a later date. The longer they keep those streets closed and businesses affected, the higher the price goes....
This is a sticky situation as there still could be a design issue at heart. Just because the structure might have been overloaded by the contractor (one theory) does't mean the structure wasn't deficient/poorly designed in the first place. By the same token the design could be sound and corners were cut during construction or sequencing that caused a collapse.
A third party forensics company will be engaged as part of the process to check the calcs and drawings. That part is relatively easy as I don't see anything really exotic about this building.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:45 pm to fightin tigers
Haven’t followed entire thread but as an aside. All of the Saenger shows have been cancelled for indeterminate amount of time.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:45 pm to CarRamrod
quote:This makes me glad I do electrical, controls, and instrumentation.
This makes my glad I don't do vertical.
This civil/structural shite all greek to me. Just give me some supports for my cable tray.
This post was edited on 10/14/19 at 9:51 pm
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:46 pm to BigPerm30
Looking at the drone footage it looks like for the most part it collapsed straight down a column line.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:47 pm to fightin tigers
quote:
If a likely cause is found early, say obvious evidence of overloading one area or someone comes forward with that, does that speed up the timetable?
Or totally a wait and see thing?
They have to retain experts and get everyone out there to test it and gather whatever they need. If the thing is about to fall, the judge may give them a really short time table to do it.
Obvious or not, all parties will want to gather whatever they need for their perspective positions.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:50 pm to BigPerm30
Makes sense.
My mental pic is of all these people who were working together now backed into their own corner with claws up like crawfish. Waiting for someone to move.
My mental pic is of all these people who were working together now backed into their own corner with claws up like crawfish. Waiting for someone to move.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:50 pm to AndyCBR
For federal projects the govt makes the contracting company take out a performance bond for the sum of the entire bid before work starts.
If the city govt is the one to step in and make a call like that and then hire a third party to clean it up theres the possibility they could go after the bond of the permit holders to fund it then settle it in court.
That said given its a private job I have no idea how big the bond is.
Eta:full performance bond before work starts, not pre-bid.
If the city govt is the one to step in and make a call like that and then hire a third party to clean it up theres the possibility they could go after the bond of the permit holders to fund it then settle it in court.
That said given its a private job I have no idea how big the bond is.
Eta:full performance bond before work starts, not pre-bid.
This post was edited on 10/14/19 at 10:29 pm
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:51 pm to BigPerm30
A lot of sub contractors are going to wait a long time to get paid.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:53 pm to AndyCBR
quote:
Just because the structure might have been overloaded by the contractor (one theory) does't mean the structure wasn't deficient/poorly designed in the first place
This is why construction litigation is expensive. It is never remotely black and white. What typically happens is everyone lawyers up, spends a shite ton of money, insurance companies get involved and then it settles shortly before trial. Insurance companies typically can’t stomach leaving complex legal theories and technical engineering and construction concepts in the hands of high school educated at best juries.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 9:56 pm to Martini
quote:
Looking at the drone footage it looks like for the most part it collapsed straight down a column line.
Yeah looks like it hit the core elevator shafts and stopped.
Posted on 10/14/19 at 10:07 pm to Martini
quote:
A lot of sub contractors are going to wait a long time to get paid.
Thankfully there is a payment bond at least.
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