re: OT What-If History Discussion: USS Iowa vs. IJN Yamato

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Without knowing the specific quality of either side's personnel, this comparison cannot be made without bringing the crews into the debate. A machine is only as good as the people operating it, after all. Can anyone say with confidence that one crew was better or more experienced than the other? Just throwing that out there for more debate.

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The Iowa crew was deadly accurate with her main guns. They only faced one surface action in the war, against the IJN cruiser Katori. The results...

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At mean range of 14,500yds, Iowa closed with Katori and fired 46 16-inch (406 mm) high capacity (non-armor-piercing) rounds and 124 5-inch (127 mm), straddling the cruiser with eight salvos. CAG 17/A16-3 reports Iowa hits Katori with her second salvo. Just after Iowa's forth salvo, Katori quickly listed to port exposing seven large shell holes about 5 feet (1.5 m) in diameter in her starboard side, one under the bridge about five feet below the waterline another amidships about at the waterline, plus about nine small holes.[citation needed] The damage on the port side was much worse. After being under attack by Iowa for only about 5 minutes, Katori sank stern first, with a port side list at

07°45'N 151°20'E about 40 miles (64 km) northwest of Truk. A large group of survivors were seen in the water after she sank, but the Americans did not recover any.

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AS to their Japanese counterparts on the Yamato. The only surface action she saw was against American escort Carriers and destroyer escorts of Taffy 3 as part of the Battle of Leyte Gulf....

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During the hours of darkness, Kurita's force navigated the San Bernardino Strait and shortly after dawn, in the Battle off Samar, attacked an American formation that had remained in the area to provide close support for the invading troops. Known as "Taffy 3", this small group comprised six escort carriers, three destroyers, and four destroyer escorts.[31] In the initial stages of this battle, Yamato engaged enemy surface targets for the only time in her career, hitting several American ships.[31][32][33] After Yamato confirmed primary battery hits on the escort carrier USS Gambier Bay, a spread of torpedoes heading for Yamato was spotted; the battleship was forced to steer away from the fighting to avoid them and was unable to rejoin the battle.[28] Although armed only with torpedoes and 5 inch guns and under attack by large caliber cannons, the light American surface combatants, supported by FM-2 Wildcats and TBM Avengers from Taffy 3's escort carriers,[34] attacked so ferociously that Kurita believed his ships were engaging a full American task force of fleet carriers.[28] A mistaken report that he was facing six fleet carriers, three cruisers, and two destroyers led Kurita to order his task force to turn and disengage. Yamato emerged from the battle without serious damage; only three near misses from bombs and seventeen casualties from strafing were suffered during the battle itself, while carrier strikes during the retreat caused light damage to the ship and injured or killed 21 crewmen. Three more heavy cruisers and one light cruiser were subsequently lost. The Centre Force sank one American escort carrier (CVE), two destroyers, and a destroyer escort.[28] A second CVE was lost by kamikaze attack after the surface engagement.

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So on the plus side, the crew showed they could hit targets. But on the bad side, they allowed destroyer escorts and escort carriers scare them away.

IIRC this test was at nearly point blank range. At the range a typical engagement would take place, armor penetration would be much more problematic. This is probably the definitive look at a hypothetical meeting, and while Iowa has a slight edge, basically it comes down to luck. One hit in a vital area could disable or sink either ship, it's just a matter of which side got lucky first. LINK

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But that's firing at the turret armor, or in other words, the thickest armor on the ship. The armor on the decks and other parts of the ship were not nearly as thick and would have been easily penetrated from even maximum range of the 16" guns on the Iowa.

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As I understand it (this is just from what I've seen on tv), it had 26" armor on the center section of the keel and lighter armor at the bow and stern to save weight. The lighter armored sections also had 1000 water tight compartments the could be pumped or flooded should they need to or should they take a hit. Also, I believe it was the first ship ever to have a bulbous bow so it could still move efficiently due to its heavy weight and displacement.

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we found some steel like the Yamato's at the end of the war and were only able to penetrate it after it was shot point blank

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Hattori Hanzo apparently made more than swords

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IIRC this test was at nearly point blank range. At the range a typical engagement would take place, armor penetration would be much more problematic. This is probably the definitive look at a hypothetical meeting, and while Iowa has a slight edge, basically it comes down to luck. One hit in a vital area could disable or sink either ship, it's just a matter of which side got lucky first. LINK

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Good read. I believe the key factor is this though...

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“In a 1945 test, an American battleship (the North Carolina) was able to maintain a constant [fire control] solution even when performing back to back high-speed 450-degree turns, followed by back-to-back 100-degree turns,” Parshall writes.

“This was a much better performance than other contemporary systems,” he continues, “and gave U.S. battleships a major tactical advantage, in that they could both shoot and maneuver, whereas their opponents could only do one or the other.”

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While the Yamato would be sailing at a steady in-line course so she could have any hope of firing accurately, which also means she would be easy to hit, the Iowa had the huge advantage of being able to maneuver and fire accurately at the same time. So while it would be very hard for the Yamato to hit the Iowa, the Iowa have had a far easier time hitting the Yamato.

While the Yamato was an impressive ship (aesthetically, my favorite battleship is the Bismarck, then the Iowa class, then Yamato), built to dominate any U.S. ship capable of traversing the Panama Canal - she was a product of "tried and true" technology and did not take advantage (the Japanese really couldn't as the war went on - they were relatively isolated) of the rapidly changing technology of the 1940s - like their excellent A-6M "Zero" fighter - almost unmatched in 1941/1942 - woefully obsolete by 1944 and 1945 - the Yamato was still a very robust, capable battleship.

The problem is - there is no way she would have faced an Iowa alone. Her support fleet versus what certainly would have been greater numbers on the American side - even if we concede (weather, availability, etc.) that air power wouldn't have been a deciding factor, the comparable fleets would have made such a fight futile on the Japanese side, certainly in 1944 and 1945 when such a battle might have even been possible (Iowa and New Jersey were commissioned in 1943 and went to the Atlantic Fleet for shakedown. They did not enter the Pacific Ocean until January 7th, 1944.)

Slight detour:

If you haven't read Ship of Ghosts about the cruiser USS Houston, do yourself a favor and read it. Covers a part of WWII not usually discussed, after Pearl Harbor but before Guadalcanal or Midway.

Part of Amazon synopsis:

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"Son, we’re going to Hell." The navigator of the USS Houston confided these prophetic words to a young officer as he and his captain charted a course into U.S. naval legend. Renowned as FDR’s favorite warship, the cruiser USS Houston was a prize target trapped in the far Pacific after Pearl Harbor. Without hope of reinforcement, her crew faced a superior Japanese force ruthlessly committed to total conquest. It wasn’t a fair fight, but the men of the Houston would wage it to the death.

Hornfischer brings to life the awesome terror of nighttime naval battles that turned decks into strobe-lit slaughterhouses, the deadly rain of fire from Japanese bombers, and the almost superhuman effort of the crew as they miraculously escaped disaster again and again–until their luck ran out during a daring action in Sunda Strait. There, hopelessly outnumbered, the Houston was finally sunk and its survivors taken prisoner. For more than three years their fate would be a mystery to families waiting at home.

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Hellcats armed with 500 lb. bombs caused Japanese Admiral Kurita to disengage during the battle of Leyte Gulf. Light damage had been done to the Yamato, and Kurita thought he was going against a much larger naval force. He backed off for fear of losing his ship

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True. And those were 500 lb general purpose bombs meant for ground support and not armor piercing bombs intended for use agaianst capital ships. Had Taffy 3 not already been busy getting her planes ready for land engagements and instead had them armed for naval engagement, there's a good chance those tiny escort carriers could have at least inflicted pretty substantial damage to the Yamato and possibly even sunk her with a lucky hit.