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re: OT Doctors- Why do we become immune to antibiotics?

Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:37 pm to
Posted by Parallax
Member since Feb 2016
1449 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:37 pm to
I practiced in Texas and it seemed like every Mexican had taken antibiotics a family member gave them before they came to the hospital.
Posted by PJ250R
The Rock
Member since Sep 2006
2082 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:38 pm to
quote:

Practicing good, evidence based medicine will often just piss off patients.

Docs are paid on patient satisfaction. (this is the new government requirement).
Thus "doctors" create antibiotic resistance and drug addicts.

This post was edited on 5/26/16 at 7:40 pm
Posted by Mars duMorgue
Sunset Dist/SF
Member since Aug 2015
2816 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:38 pm to
The bacteria in the human stomach is obscenely potent. In fact, it could dissolve a corpse much faster than sodium or potassium hydroxide or limestone. Defeating an antibiotic is no big thing.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
108189 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:39 pm to
We don't get immune to antibiotics. They work fine on us. The diseases they fight become immune to them. They mutate and get stronger each and every time.

The answer is simple: evolution. But many idiots on this site find it to be a myth.
Posted by Mars duMorgue
Sunset Dist/SF
Member since Aug 2015
2816 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:44 pm to
quote:

But many idiots on this site find it to be a myth.

Not me. I'm evolutionist all the way. I firmly believe that apes descended from man.
Posted by Bmath
LA
Member since Aug 2010
18667 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:45 pm to
We do not become immune to antibiotics, but bacteria can.

Whenever an infection is treated with an antibiotic it doesn't always kill every bacterial cell.

A few cells may have an innate immunity or resistance, and begin reproducing again. This problem can be further exacerbated because different bacterial species can share certain traits through horizontal gene transfer.

Different antibiotics work to stop things like cell division or disrupt cell walls. A mutation in a protein expression can keep antibiotics from harming the bacteria.
Posted by bbrownso
Member since Mar 2008
8985 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:45 pm to
Actually her E.Coli isn't resistant to all antibiotics, just the antibiotic of last resort, Colistin.

As for how bacteria gain immunity:
quote:

Bacteria develop antibiotic resistance in two ways. Many acquire mutations in their own genomes that allow them to withstand antibiotics, although that ability can't be shared with pathogens outside their own family.

They get infected with something called a plasmid, a small piece of DNA, carrying a gene for antibiotic resistance. That makes resistance genes more dangerous because plasmids can make copies of themselves and transfer the genes they carry to other bugs within the same family as well as jump to other families of bacteria, which can then "catch" the resistance directly without having to develop it through evolution.


And it appears that the reason that some E.Coli has gotten this resistance might be:
quote:

Colistin is widely used in Chinese livestock, and this use probably led bacteria to evolve and gain a resistance to the drug. The gene probably leaped from livestock to human microbes through food
Posted by Pectus
Internet
Member since Apr 2010
67302 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:53 pm to
quote:

Bacteria create defense mechanisms that make them resistant.



I don't know if this is safe terminology either.

They don't create them.

They luck into them by random mutation.
Posted by KamaCausey_LSU
Member since Apr 2013
14496 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:54 pm to
Bacteria can evolve and alter their DNA at an alarming rate. If something targets a strand of RNA, they they move it or rearrange it. If it destroys the cell wall they can make enzymes that neutralize it or hide from the antibiotic.

They can trade DNA with other bacteria via conjugation. So if you have 2 bacterium resistant one resistant and one vulnerable, you can soon have 2 resistant ones.

Over-prescription and not finishing a prescription is the main cause.
This post was edited on 5/26/16 at 7:57 pm
Posted by Parallax
Member since Feb 2016
1449 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:55 pm to
There is a lot of poorly/incorrectly described things in this thread, but it's a tough topic to talk about (and this is an SEC/LSU sports message board).
Posted by Mung
NorCal
Member since Aug 2007
9054 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:56 pm to
quote:

We become immune to antibiotics


Are you a bacteria?

Even an OT lawyer knows better than that.
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:57 pm to
To quote Eddie Vedder:

"It's evolution baby!"

Nature adapts readily to manmade constructs
Injudicious / rampant use of antibiotics contributes to this "evolution"
This post was edited on 5/26/16 at 8:03 pm
Posted by boosiebadazz
Member since Feb 2008
80215 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:57 pm to
I'm watching TV, have a drink in one hand, and typing with the other. It was an inarticulate word usage
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98178 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 7:58 pm to
Not to mention farmers pumping their livestock full of antibiotics.
Posted by Pectus
Internet
Member since Apr 2010
67302 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:03 pm to
quote:

here is a lot of poorly/incorrectly described things in this thread, but it's a tough topic to talk about


You are right.


Maybe if one person does their best at answering the OP it would be better.
Posted by ThinePreparedAni
In a sea of cognitive dissonance
Member since Mar 2013
11089 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:16 pm to
PS, cancer biology has similar evolutionary themes...

LINK

quote:

Cancer progression is more consistent with Lamarckian than Darwinian evolution When viewed as a mitochondrial metabolic disease cancer progres- sion is more in line with the evolutionary theory of Lamarck than with the theory of Darwin (20). Many investigators in the cancer eld have attempted to link the Darwinian theory of evolution to the phe- nomenon of tumor progression (171–174). The attempt to link can- cer progression to Darwinian evolution is based largely on the view that nuclear somatic mutations are drivers of the disease. According to Lamarck’s theory, it is the environment that produces changes in biological structures (175). Through adaptation and differential use, these changes lead to modi cations in the structures. The modi ca- tions of structures would then be passed on to successive genera- tions as acquired traits. Lamarck’s evolutionary synthesis was based on his belief that the degree of use or disuse of biological structures


quote:

shaped evolution along with the inheritance of acquired adaptability. Lamarck’s ideas could also accommodate a dominant role for epi- genetics and horizontal gene transfer as factors that could facilitate tumor progression (176,177). In addition to nuclear epigenetic events involving acetylation and phosphorylations, mitochondria are also recognized as a powerful extra nuclear epigenetic system (159,178– 180). Other epigenetic phenomena such as cytomegalovirus infection, cell fusion and horizontal gene transfer can also contribute to cancer progression and metastasis (147,159,181–184). Considering the dynamic behavior of mitochondria involving regular fusions and ssions, abnormalities in mitochondrial struc- ture can be rapidly disseminated throughout the cellular mitochon- drial network and passed along to daughter cells somatically, through cytoplasmic inheritance (17,185). The capacity for mitochondrial res- piratory function becomes progressively less with each cell division as adaptability to substrate level phosphorylation increases (Figure 3). The somatic progression of cancer would therefore embody the con- cept of the somatic inheritance of an acquired trait. The acquired trait in this case is alteration to mitochondrial structure. The most malig- nant cancer cells would sustain the near-complete replacement of their respiration with fermentation. This is obvious in those tumor cells with quantitative and qualitative abnormalities in their mitochon- dria (Figure 2). The somatic inheritance of mitochondrial dysfunc- tion in tumor cells could contribute in part to the appearance of a clonal origin, but not directly involving the nuclear genome. However, the degree of nuclear genomic instability can be linked to mitochon- drial dysfunction and both defects together can contribute to tumor progression. A Lamarckian view can account for the non-uniform accumulation of mutations and drug resistance seen during cancer progression. Drug resistance is linked to enhanced lactate fermenta- tion, which is acquired during tumor progression (61,186). It is our opinion that the evolutionary concepts of Lamarck can better explain the phenomena of tumor progression than can the evolutionary con- cepts of Darwin. We encourage further research on this perspective of tumor progression.
Posted by Volt
Ascension Island, S Atlantic Ocean
Member since Nov 2009
2960 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:21 pm to
[quote]Practicing primary care and good medicine often don't coincide nowadays because people expect antibiotics. Midlevel providers are some of the worst offenders of this [quote]

Practitioners at all levels and scopes of medicine are guilty of this.

Your condescending attitude (seen in this comment along with all of those in the "thread that will never die") towards mid-levels is undeniable, which I'm sure makes working with you a miserable experience. I bet nurses at all levels loathe working with you.

Btw, that condescending and arrogant attitude is seen by your patients.
Posted by PepaSpray
Adamantium Membership
Member since Aug 2012
11080 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:27 pm to
quote:

I firmly believe that apes descended from man.

certainly explains Oregon fans...
Posted by Parallax
Member since Feb 2016
1449 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:28 pm to
It's lonely at the top, bruh.
Posted by Cracker
in a box
Member since Nov 2009
17681 posts
Posted on 5/26/16 at 8:30 pm to
Reap what you sew
You frickers want an antibiotic every time Jr has the sniffles. If you don't get your zpac you are not happy live with the consequences.
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