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re: On this day in 1866, Ulysses S. Grant became the first 4-star general in U.S. Army history
Posted on 7/25/20 at 4:20 pm to RollTide1987
Posted on 7/25/20 at 4:20 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Probably kill many more of his own soldiers than he did with the Confederacy's resources and manpower. No commanding general had more men killed off from his ranks in the Civil War than that of Robert Edward Lee.
Lost Causer's don't like this, but facts is facts.
Posted on 7/25/20 at 11:56 pm to rotrain
quote:
Lee was an average general
I'm probably one of the biggest "Lee bashers" on this board but the above statement is asinine. I would argue that Robert E. Lee is easily one of the Top 5 best manipulators of force in U.S. history.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 11:26 am to RollTide1987
To think Lee was an average general is not at all asinine; that is quite an overstatement. There are many historians who believe he was average; some even believe him to be below average and believe he was a primary cause of the South losing the war. Heck, entire books have been devoted to the topic.
Is it asinine to consider the possibility he was average? No. To do it on this board, possibly.
Is it asinine to consider the possibility he was average? No. To do it on this board, possibly.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 11:55 am to AUCE05
quote:
Winning meant different things to each side. The north wanted to maintain the union where the south was wanting to separate. That meant the north had to invade. The general consensus amongst the northern population was to not fight. Had Lee utilized trench warfare like many of his advisors were suggesting, they could have prolonged the war a few more years and made Lincoln pull out. The invasions on NY, and offensive strategy on open battle fields from Lee was terrible.
You are looking at one theater of the war. There was way more going on than what was going on in Virginia when Lee became commander of the army of Northern Virginia in June of 1862.
The Union was blockading the Southern ports. The union had invaded the south and took over western and middle Tenn. and had staved off the South’s major counter attack at Shiloh.New Orleans had already fallen and the Union was well on their way to capturing the Miss River capturing Memphis in June if 62. The rivers opened the door for the union navy in the west.
Lee was not the commander in chief of all Confederate forces. He was in charge of his army. Had he set back and just defended in the East the union would have eventually taken the west, taken Atlanta and isolated his army in Virginia.
A defensive war for the south was only as good as its weakest link and when the union took New Orleans and stopped the south’s counter attacks in the west, the west was basically doomed. The south lacked the resources to stop the union in the east and drive them out of the west.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 12:20 pm to rotrain
Lee was a fantastic general. Criticisms of his tactical ability have overplayed in the last few years as an indirect way of criticizing the confederacy itself. If he wasn’t so tied to the Lost Cause narrative, he wouldn’t get nearly the shite he has in recent years.
Even with that, a lot of people will still begrudgingly admit his military genius.
Grant was also a great general. I think comparing the two has always been an exercise in futility. You can make a one to one comparison.
Even with that, a lot of people will still begrudgingly admit his military genius.
Grant was also a great general. I think comparing the two has always been an exercise in futility. You can make a one to one comparison.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:36 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
He married into a slave-owning family and owned a slave himself (a slave which he set free rather than selling for a small fortune). He also worked alongside the slaves in the fields of his father-in-law's plantation.
You left out one minor detail. The only slave transaction he took part in was freeing the slave his FIL gifted to him. Also his father was a devout abolitionist. He never approved of the marriage and had very little to do with Grant going way back to the courtship until he died.
For you baws who want to learn more about him, I highly recommend Chernow's biography. It's a long read but isn't dense like a lot of other contemporary presidential biographies.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:54 pm to RollTide1987
Aren't we supposed to forget that any of that happened? Let's not mention it.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:37 pm to rotrain
quote:
There are many historians who believe he was average; some even believe him to be below average and believe he was a primary cause of the South losing the war. Heck, entire books have been devoted to the topic.
I am aware of these books and have even read a few of them. I am quite privy to their arguments about how Lee's actions helped hasten the end of the Civil War and I respectfully think those historians have lost their damn minds. I 100% believe Ulysses S. Grant was the best overall general of the war. No question. But many of these historians which you talk about share this belief and feel as if they need to denigrate Lee's reputation to elevate Grant's. I disagree wholeheartedly with this logic.
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 4:38 pm
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