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re: Let's discuss the truth of the Catiline conspiracy
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:42 am to Tiger1242
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:42 am to Tiger1242
quote:
This could make a lot of sense and it would also make sense for Cicero to leave that part out so as not to alienate his contemporaries especially since he needed allies
We should also remember that even brilliant and powerful men often convince themselves they have greater capabilities, power, and influence than they actually do. As a result their calculus for success of certain endeavors, power grabs in particular, are flawed and clearly destined to fail to any unbiased observer.
1
Posted on 4/30/17 at 10:46 am to mdomingue
Cicero never had a real power base. All he had was his oratory. Caesar came from a family of note and was related to Marius and Sulla through his aunts. Later he got the support of Crassus and then the army. Cato and his pals were the old guard and had their own base. Cicero, for all of his brilliance, didn't really fit in anywhere and was thus always playing on the knife's edge.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 11:18 am to prplhze2000
Well Cicero was a provincial and a plebeian so he was never accepted by Roman elites and got by because he was extraordinarily intelligent and talented.
Cataline was a Roman patrician who's family had fallen out of the true elite class but still got by on his patrician status to gain political advantage
Cataline was a Roman patrician who's family had fallen out of the true elite class but still got by on his patrician status to gain political advantage
This post was edited on 4/30/17 at 11:21 am
Posted on 4/30/17 at 12:18 pm to Methuselah
Slightly off topic, but I recently listened to an interesting lecture on the late Roman Republic. The speaker argued that the expansion of Roman lands beyond the Italian peninsula necessitated a transition from a citizen-soldier to a professional army. This led to the army being more loyal to its generals than the ideals of the Republic. The political potential of the army was recognized, and once used, the fall of the Republic was all but guaranteed.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 12:59 pm to STLDawg
Absolutely that and the fact that Sulla marched his soldiers into Rome and took it over with great success, laying the path for Caesar and all the men who followed
Posted on 4/30/17 at 1:33 pm to WAR TIGER
quote:
Most importantly....who writes history?
The victor
I love reading history but I have always believed historians are a little too sure of themselves.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 2:05 pm to Tiger1242
Leave Lucius Cornelius alone. He was a great man.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 2:17 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
Well Cicero was a provincial and a plebeian so he was never accepted by Roman elites and got by because he was extraordinarily intelligent and talented.
Not buying this. Though Cicero wasn't born in Rome, he can be considered neither provincial nor plebeian. Arpinum, where he grew up, wasn't that far from Rome and was a legitimate city. Cicero's father was a wealthy businessman with connections in Rome. Cicero was an eques, and while not at the top of the Roman social ladder, this is still elite social territory. While it may be true that Cicero advanced to a great extent on his merit, it's wrong to suggest he was never accepted by Roman elites. You don't get elected consul if you're not accepted. Julius Caesar himself was one of Cicero's many pen pals. Cicero had lots of friends among the elite. Read the letters they sent to each other. You will see that some of the topics are quite personal, and Caesar even told Cicero things that he kept off the record in his Commentaries. That doesn't sound like an outsider to me at all.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 2:48 pm to SpqrTiger
This is a very interesting topic (not that I know a lot about Roman history). I'm reading this thread in the hotel room tonight after just visiting the coliseum, Vatican and walked around the pantheon tonight (going to tour the inside tmrw). The coliseum has to be one of the coolest / interesting things I've ever seen. To think of how that was constructed for the sport of pure killing and brutality. On the audio tour I think I heard the stat that when the coliseum opened there was 100 days of games and in that 100 days 9,000 animals and 2,000 men were killed.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 3:52 pm to SpqrTiger
quote:
Not buying this. Though Cicero wasn't born in Rome, he can be considered neither provincial nor plebeian. Arpinum, where he grew up, wasn't that far from Rome and was a legitimate city. Cicero's father was a wealthy businessman with connections in Rome. Cicero was an eques, and while not at the top of the Roman social ladder, this is still elite social territory.
Okay I guess he's barely a provincial and basically grew up in Rome, but his dad being wealthy makes no difference to the fact he was a plebeian.
Patricians in Rome were families who could trace their lineage back to one of the first 100 Senators in Rome, Plebeians were everyone else.
Cicero's family tree doesn't trace back to one of the first 100 Senators of Rome therefore he was a Plebeian, wealth had nothing to do with it
This post was edited on 4/30/17 at 3:53 pm
Posted on 4/30/17 at 4:59 pm to biglego
quote:
I love reading history but I have always believed historians are a little too sure of themselves.
History is a pack of lies, written about things that never happened, by people who weren't there.
Posted on 4/30/17 at 5:03 pm to Tiger1242
Where do the Reptilians fit into all this?
Posted on 4/30/17 at 6:19 pm to Jim Rockford
They brainwashed us and invented all of this
Posted on 4/30/17 at 6:34 pm to Tiger1242
(no message)
This post was edited on 4/30/17 at 6:41 pm
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