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Message
re: Just a thought - The Immaculate Conception
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:19 am to grizzlylongcut
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:19 am to grizzlylongcut
Ok, but where does it say that your grandparents are full of grace? I need scripts say it. If it’s not in scripture, it’s not true. You said your grandparents were the same as Mary, and yet Mary is expressly mentioned in scripture as having grace. What book mentions your grandparents.
Please stick to the standard that you’ve established.
This is a little like your “god is omnipotent, but can only do certain things” heresy that you were pumping last night.
Please stick to the standard that you’ve established.
This is a little like your “god is omnipotent, but can only do certain things” heresy that you were pumping last night.
This post was edited on 12/15/23 at 7:20 am
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Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:19 am to 4cubbies
quote:
Equating the Mother of God to your sinful grandparents is pretty disrespectful.
She was not the mother of God. She was the mother of Jesus of Nazareth. God has no beginning and no end. Nothing about her had anything to do with Christ’s divinity.
This post was edited on 12/15/23 at 7:24 am
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:21 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
She was not the mother of God.
Heresy. Are you an adoptionist? It was a quite popular heresy in the East in the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:23 am to Ingeniero
quote:
Which is why I made my earlier point about the hermeneutics of how Mary is titled in the Bible. This isn't just "having" grace. A word meaning permanent, ever-present grace was used. That's different than the grace you or I receive.
People really should read the links you posted last night. Even if you don’t believe any of this, the explanation of the Greek used in that passage is very interesting. The English translation doesn’t do it justice.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:30 am to Mo Jeaux
Let's also not forget the connection to the old testament and Mary's role as the Ark of the New Covenant. This is a really long explanation but I'll quote some of it.
LINK
LINK
quote:
It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.
quote:
God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?
quote:
The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Lk 1:35). (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God)
This post was edited on 12/15/23 at 7:35 am
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:31 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
She was not the mother of God. She was the mother of Jesus of Nazareth
You don’t believe in the Holy Trinity?
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:32 am to Mo Jeaux
No, you’re putting words in my mouth.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:33 am to 4cubbies
quote:
She was not the mother of God. She was the mother of Jesus of Nazareth
You don’t believe in the Holy Trinity?
Ohhh, shots fired! Good for you 4cubbies.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:33 am to 4cubbies
quote:
You don’t believe in the Holy Trinity?
He’s interesting. I’m only half joking when I call him heretical, but he’s espousing some heretical views even though he claims to be a sola scriptura mainstream Protestant.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:34 am to LSUJuice
quote:
Let's also not forget the connection to the old testament and Mary's role as the Ark of the New Covenant
Yeah I haven't even touched on the fulfillment of OT (the testament, not the forum) prophecies yet. The "virgin daughter of Zion," etc.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:34 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
No, you’re putting words in my mouth.
I’m not at all. You just espoused an anti-trinitarian view, which is quite outside the mainstream of orthodox (little “o”) Christianity.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:36 am to liz18lsu
Mary was born with original sin.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:43 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
he claims to be a sola scriptura mainstream Protestant.
I think he’s so focused on disproving that Mary is worthy of veneration that he’s gone rogue on his own beliefs. I’m assuming he does believe Jesus is God and didn’t realize what he was actually implying when he said Mary isn’t the mother of God.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:55 am to 4cubbies
quote:
You don’t believe in the Holy Trinity?
I do. Nothing about Mary makes Jesus holy.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 7:57 am to blueboxer1119
quote:
Mary was born with original sin.
Yep. She had a human father therefore sin was passed on to her (Rom. 5:12).
This is what makes the virgin birth even more significant. Jesus had to be sinless to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for all sins. He didn’t have a human father, so sin did not get passed down to him.
Yet, his physical self was a descendant of the line of King David through Mary. Thus he is fully God and fully (sinless) man.
His royal kingship was passed down by the line of King David through Joseph by adoption, as royalty could only be passed on by the father. Thus he is a fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant as the future and forever King of Kings.
This post was edited on 12/15/23 at 7:59 am
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:00 am to 4cubbies
This is not grace that we get, ok. I'll read up on that.
Was Mary a human just like you and me?
Was she concieved with human egg and sperm?
Was Mary a human just like you and me?
Was she concieved with human egg and sperm?
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:02 am to liz18lsu
I wasn't there so I have no idea.
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:03 am to grizzlylongcut
True. However Jesus (fully divine and fully human) living within her, does make Mary holy (that and her immaculate conception). And that's the thing: while we venerate Mary, everything leads to Jesus. He's the savoir. She leads us to him.
To be clear, Mary has not one ounce of divinity. But she is the Ark of the New Covenant.
Also this is a nice writeup from Tim staples that explains many of the points in this thread:
LINK
To be clear, Mary has not one ounce of divinity. But she is the Ark of the New Covenant.
Also this is a nice writeup from Tim staples that explains many of the points in this thread:
LINK
This post was edited on 12/15/23 at 11:20 am
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:05 am to liz18lsu
But I do think the Hebrew scriptures list a day she was conceived. And you are away Jesus wasn't really born on December 25th right?
Posted on 12/15/23 at 8:07 am to grizzlylongcut
Do you believe Jesus is God?
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