re: Is this how atheists think Christianity started?

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Are you saying that the apostles thought Jesus was a fraud until after his resurrection?

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I’m sure it creeped into their minds

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I would think I’ll be braver than the apostles in that situation… but none of us know what we’ll do in a situation we’re you could save your life with a worded denial… I mean would Jesus really be against you doing as such ??

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Brother, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke tell you in no uncertain terms what the expectations are:


Matthew 10:33 - But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9 - But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Just to add the full context:

Matthew 10:

10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
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a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

Luke 12:

Warnings and Encouragements

12 Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be[a] on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

11 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

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Wouldn’t say retarded… probably not learned men most likely… you don’t think some of those guys had been fooled by mystics and such before???… basically anything that couldn’t explain or figure out would be considered a miracle… the miracle you referenced earlier about the feeding of thousands could easily be Jesus persuading some merchants to provide free food or better yet someone paid for the food without the other guys knowledge… even more likely years down the line the part about the merchants was intentionally left out because it makes the story grander

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Tell me how Peter would rationalize away walking on water and then beginning to sink when his faith faltered.

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Are we arguing the merits of the message or the merits of the miracles themselves??? … because it’s two different answers for most of you and Slo questions

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I'm asking you if you believe Peter's actions (and inaction) in the Gospels after Jesus' arrest and crucifixion follow what you would expect a rational adult human being to do after they had spent years witnessing, and sometimes being an actual part of, miracles performed by a man who told them to their faces that, if they denied him on Earth, he would deny them in heaven.

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But does that really read like a human being to you?

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Sure. He was afraid for his life, and had just assaulted a arresting guard

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but the way the question is framed the answer is no… but to harken back to the atheists point that question would have to be framed sans the miracles and only the message and messenger considered… under that framework the answer is yes its possible

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Or the stories are parables written after the fact for consumption by potential converts

Which isn't nefarious

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Or the stories are parables written after the fact for consumption by potential converts

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Well yeah… this is a known “known… I think most people who call themselves atheists have completely accepted this fact… the more religious types haven’t… both can still share the same moral compass

Christians believe in 1 miracle. God always existed. If you believe that the rest makes complete sense. You have hundreds of prophecy’s fulfilled. In Job you have God mentioning “springs in the oceans” we didn’t know that till 1800s. He talks about where wind comes from, we didn’t know that either then. You have the tribe of Light mentioned in Numbers and the exact number of people is the speed of light. You have lineages of kings predicted. The Dead Sea Scrolls had verses of the Bible which line up exactly with what we previously had. You look at all the references in the Old Testament to Jesus coming, being born exactly where it was predicted. Yes the Bible was written and translated from different languages so some of the words can get lost. But when you talk to scholars who go back and read the original language they tell you how freaking close it is. I think my favorite argument I get lately is “yeah well the Bible has several stories just like other religions. Other creation stories, floods, birth of a virgin, etc. So why should i believe the Bible when it copied those?” Hmmm, lots of accounts of similar things tells me…It happened. If I see lots of drawings of men fighting bears in caves, I think there were men fighting bears... So when you hear how flood stories are depicted in Samoa/Hawaii and Asia are probably what they’ve experienced and heard from ancestors.


But Atheist, who make fun of you for thinking God always existed and that something came from nothing, yet somehow think SCIENTIFICALLY, that something came from nothing. Somehow these tiny particles (which were always here) somehow caused such an explosion, the Big Bang, that life and the universe we now see came from. The amount of trouble and literally millions of miracles that had to occur just for us to exist is laughable. That somehow that chaos caused order. Which we have never seen this before. Somehow these single cell, microorganism evolved into multi cellular things over BILLIONS of years. Yet, none has ever been proven. If that’s true then you are just a complex chemical reaction. Where does your morality come from? Where does your love come from? By that thinking you don’t love your kids you just have a need to procreate and have offspring. You truly believe that? You have no free will and should just be a complete savage. But no, all throughout history of mankind, our ancestors have always known we come from an intelligent creator. Go look at some of the smartest atheist ever who tried to prove God wasn’t real and they all converted.


But what I usually encounter from atheist is they are so proud and don’t want to acknowledge God because then they have to change their way of life. There’s a hubris deep down that wants to have no accountability for the life they live or their actions. Or they’ve been scorned by the church which breaks my heart too.

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If you had personally witnessed the miracles I posted, including personally walking on water yourself

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Human frailty is still human frailty

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and had been told to your face by the miracle worker himself that if you denied him on earth, you would face eternal torment

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False, he was told that he was Jesus' rock, and that he would definitely deny him 3 times. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin (Mark 3:29)

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is defined in Christianity as the persistent, willful rejection of God’s grace and the Holy Spirit’s testimony to Jesus Christ, rather than a single act of disobedience. It is considered unforgivable because the sinner refuses to repent and accept God's mercy.

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LINK

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Human frailty is still human frailty

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I’ll take that as a no, you don’t believe you would act that way. I don’t think you would, either

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False, he was told that he was Jesus' rock, and that he would definitely deny him 3 times. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin (Mark 3:29)

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Sidesteps the point that they were all told that denial of Jesus on earth was a massive breach. Yet they did it. You can cite to human frailty all you’d like, but I imagine you would be inclined to castigate a man who hid in the closet while his wife was raped, yet give the apostles a pass for choosing immediate safety over eternal salvation.