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re: Is it impossible to travel to another solar system?
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:04 pm to Korkstand
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:04 pm to Korkstand
quote:
t was realists who thought man would never harness the power of lightning or the atom, would never fly, and would never walk on the moon. The dreamers made all of that happen.
Atomic bombs produce as much energy with a few pounds of material as tens of millions of pounds of TNT. How much further could we go with antimatter as far as energy density is concerned? It has been estimated that "one milligram would be enough to send a probe to Pluto and back in a year". Right now, it takes a very, very long time and a whole lot of energy to produce even that much, but technology inevitably marches forward.
The universe still has a lot of secrets, but I have faith in the dreamers that we will figure out a lot of them pretty soon.
I'm not saying it's impossible that we find some exotic force or energy that makes it possible. What I'm saying is that according to the laws of physics as we know them today, none of the theories that have been put forth in this thread are realistic. They simply won't work. Now it's entirely possible one way we'll discover some means of doing it but I cannot see it involving bending space time.
3
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:06 pm to panterica
quote:Totally not me.
No no no, I was reading a link of a guy proposing that theory. Some hippy looking dude preaching it.
But if that's your blog I read, then I apologize.
It's hard to infer to whom posts are directed.
I thought you were criticizing my understanding of vocabulary and grammar.
.... As, I was trying to logically understand how the phenomenon "WOULD" work if it "were" true.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:08 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
What about interstellar space where there is really not much of anything to exert any gravitational force? For example our star (which is very average) really only exerts any gravitational pull to speak of in the space roughly one light year around it (look up Oort Cloud). The nearest start to us is I believe something like 4 light years away. Between those two places there is not much gravitational force of any kind to speak of. That being the case, how can this "highway" use natural forces of gravity for interstellar space?
You've heard of dark matter, right? Roughly 90% of the gravitational forces that we detect in the universe seem to come from nowhere.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:08 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
but there is not enough there to give the type of power to do what is being proposed in this thread.
Right. I wasn't even considering gravity as the 'engine' to be manipulated. I said 'highway', but I don't think specific pre-existing routes is necessary. Gravity is probably way too weak to be the key to that kind of travel.
The sonic boom at the end of the journey wouldn't be an issue if you're not technically zooming straight through space. If you made the wormhole idea possible, it would look more like you disappeared and re-materialized rather than disappeared by shooting at light speed and stopped so suddenly your ship becomes a can of people soup.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:11 pm to DanTiger
quote:
How long have we got on this planet before we are wiped out? This is my central question. Do you all believe we will develop the means to leave before we are destroyed?
Like I said on the first page, if the Mesozoic period is any indication we have ~17 million years left.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:11 pm to colorchangintiger
this guy has it right.
In another 100,000 years there is no telling how far technology will come. in the last 100 years we have come from cars that can only go 30-40 mph to jets breaking the sound barrier and even 100 years before that we were on fricking horses
In another 100,000 years there is no telling how far technology will come. in the last 100 years we have come from cars that can only go 30-40 mph to jets breaking the sound barrier and even 100 years before that we were on fricking horses
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:13 pm to Korkstand
quote:I wish we would learn alot more about anit-matter.
You've heard of dark matter, right? Roughly 90% of the gravitational forces that we detect in the universe seem to come from nowhere.
Pretty simple concept: equal and opposite.
Positive and Negative. Protons and Electrons.
Therefore if there's matter, there has to be anti-matter.
But why do they both have gravity?
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:15 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Now it's entirely possible one way we'll discover some means of doing it but I cannot see it involving bending space time.
It seems like the solution has to involve bending spacetime, if there is a solution at all. We are pretty sure that we can't break the "laws" as we know them. Speed = distance / time, right? If we can't increase the speed, then we have to change the distance or the time.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:17 pm to Korkstand
quote:
You've heard of dark matter, right? Roughly 90% of the gravitational forces that we detect in the universe seem to come from nowhere.
I am familiar with dark matter. And most of what we think we know about it (including it's existence) is hypothetical at best. Now if we could figure out how to use it (or better yet Dark Energy) to propel a craft then perhaps this interstellar highway would work. It may be the answer, but then again it may not. We just don't know enough about it at this point to say it would play a vital part in interstellar travel.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:19 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Now it's entirely possible one way we'll discover some means of doing it but I cannot see it involving bending space time.
Okay - stick with me, Darth - if the Higgs Bosun exists as postulated, and we can, ultimately, tune any object's mass by using a "setting" with this particle - then you could dial the mass back to approaching zero - then conventional force could push the now, nearly massless object to incredible speeds.
If Tachyons exist and can be similarly manipulated, it would have the practical effect of bending space and time around an object in a state of manipulation.
Now - the Higgs Bosun only "probably" exists, and tachyons remain purely theoretical, but those are 2 aspects of current scientific inquiry that - if resolved - could have us travelling interstellar distances this century or early next century - if we make as much progress as we have the last 200 to 300 years in physics and transportation engineering.
Think about this - the maximum controlled speed for powered human travel in the 1880s was about 45 miles per hour - by 1967, it was about 18,000 miles per hour. We've kind of flattened out in the progress, but another 100 year run like that could have us at 1/10 the speed of light. Now, that's nowhere near instellar speed, but that is interplanetary speed - a trip to the moon would take 12 hours - Mars would be just a few days away, etc.
I'm completely sober...
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:19 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:Dude. It's because the ability to travel to another solar system IS impossible today.
What I'm saying is that according to the laws of physics as we know them today, none of the theories that have been put forth in this thread are realistic.
You're asking us for examples existing technology to prove whether or not it's possible in the FUTURE.
quote:They may in fact be wrong, flawed, or incomplete.
according to the laws of physics as we know them today
quote:Whelp... that settles it, boys. Pack it up and head home. This party's over before it even started.
but I cannot see it involving bending space time
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:20 pm to Mahootney
quote:
I wish we would learn alot more about anit-matter.
Pretty simple concept: equal and opposite.
Positive and Negative. Protons and Electrons.
Therefore if there's matter, there has to be anti-matter.
But why do they both have gravity?
Hasn't it been "proven" that antimatter and dark matter are not the same thing?
Couldn't dark matter not be matter at all?
We know that antimatter can exist because we've created it. We don't know most of its properties though, because we can't create enough to experiment. Is it possible that antimatter has inverted gravity?
Dark matter is kind of the opposite as far as what we know, right? We know some of its properties and the gravitational forces it exerts, but we don't have a clue what it is.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:21 pm to Korkstand
quote:
It seems like the solution has to involve bending spacetime, if there is a solution at all. We are pretty sure that we can't break the "laws" as we know them. Speed = distance / time, right? If we can't increase the speed, then we have to change the distance or the time.
As we understand space time and the laws of physics, at this time it does appear that it would have to involve bending space time to travel between our star any another. And therein lays the problem. The laws of physics also tells us it's impossible to bend space time in a manner that would result in a maned space craft with a live crew to go from our star to another star and arrive there intact and alive.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:25 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I am familiar with dark matter. And most of what we think we know about it (including it's existence) is hypothetical at best. Now if we could figure out how to use it (or better yet Dark Energy) to propel a craft then perhaps this interstellar highway would work. It may be the answer, but then again it may not. We just don't know enough about it at this point to say it would play a vital part in interstellar travel.
Welcome to the thread.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:25 pm to colorchangintiger
quote:
Like I said on the first page, if the Mesozoic period is any indication we have ~17 million years left.
But that is only the blink of an eye in comparison to the age of our planet. There is little difference in tomorrow and 17 million years.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:27 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
Okay - stick with me, Darth - if the Higgs Bosun exists as postulated, and we can, ultimately, tune any object's mass by using a "setting" with this particle - then you could dial the mass back to approaching zero - then conventional force could push the now, nearly massless object to incredible speeds.
There is one problem here. Once an object even with almost zero mass is pushed that fast, according to the laws of physics, it's mass grows... it grows a lot. I posted this earlier....
quote:
These concepts seem deceptively simple, but they have some mind-bending implications. One of the biggest is represented by Einstein's famous equation, E = mc², where E is energy, m is mass and c is the speed of light. According to this equation, mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. Because of this equivalence, the energy an object has due to its motion will increase its mass. In other words, the faster an object moves, the greater its mass. This only becomes noticeable when an object moves really quickly. If it moves at 10 percent the speed of light, for example, its mass will only be 0.5 percent more than normal. But if it moves at 90 percent the speed of light, its mass will double.
As an object approaches the speed of light, its mass rises precipitously. If an object tries to travel 186,000 miles per second, its mass becomes infinite, and so does the energy required to move it. For this reason, no normal object can travel as fast or faster than the speed of light.
The rest of your post falls apart at this point since your object has now grown to infinite size and it's energy requirement likewise becomes infinite. Now if you can figure out a way to get around this fact so the rest of your idea is plausible, I'm all for hearing your ideas.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:27 pm to Mahootney
quote:
Pretty simple concept: equal and opposite.
Positive and Negative. Protons and Electrons.
I used to get really into this stuff when I was about twenty. I would just take trips through my thoughts imagining things like why "nothing" is impossible, what the fabric of spacetime really is, dimensions, etc. It seemed to me that most things tend to just boil down to everything naturally fighting for equilibrium, from subatomic particle vibrations to human interactions to universes popping into existence.
You can't have a pure vacuum, because an amount of energy will be needed, even 'created,' to balance it out. With enough energy you have matter. Nothing really ever finds equilibrium because of the chaotic nature of all things on every scale.
Back to travel, if you can efficiently disrupt the fabric of the universe (warping spacetime or by some other means), then the universe by an equalizing force could possibly do the heavy lifting for you.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:29 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:There was a driver for those advancements in technology.
Think about this - the maximum controlled speed for powered human travel in the 1880s was about 45 miles per hour - by 1967, it was about 18,000 miles per hour. We've kind of flattened out in the progress, but another 100 year run like that could have us at 1/10 the speed of light.
Now that we've reached space travel, what's the reward for progression?
Going to the wasteland of Mars? Farther?
I have seen some cool ion fusion drive prototypes. They're SUPER awesome!!!
Like NASA’s Evolutionary Xenon Thruster and Princeton's Direct Fusion Drive concept.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:32 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:You might want to research Raychaudhuri's theorem and exotic matter.
The laws of physics also tells us it's impossible to bend space time in a manner that would result in a maned space craft with a live crew to go from our star to another star and arrive there intact and alive.
If we can understand and extrapolate it to macro scale, booom... we've got space-time manipulation.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:34 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
The laws of physics also tells us it's impossible to bend space time in a manner that would result in a maned space craft with a live crew to go from our star to another star and arrive there intact and alive.
I am not familiar with these laws.
As far as I'm aware, gravity is the bending of spacetime. In other words, we are all living in a distorted region of spacetime right now. Can you point me to a link that explains the limit of spacetime distortion that we are able to live in?
It's not as if our bodies are being physically crushed by this distortion of spacetime. The spacetime and the matter that exists inside it all distort together. Would we even realize it if we were to pass through a particularly dense region of spacetime?
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