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Message
re: How did the Big Bang happen?
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:17 pm to paperwasp
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:17 pm to paperwasp
quote:
Better hope you're right.
quote:
Pascal's wager
I’m glad someone finally mentioned this, and I see it referenced in a couple of other posts. The “hedging your bet” issue is something that always bothered me, going back to my youth, many years before I had ever heard of Pascal’s Wager or knew that the concept had a name. I’ll link the wiki on it in case folks want to read a bit more.
Pascal’s Wager
Quick summary:
—God either exists or He does not-there are only 2 options/choices
—you can’t reason your way into understanding one or the other—at some point, if we’re intellectually honest, you have to concede you don’t know
—You MUST choose one or the other—it’s a coin flip and you have to call it (As I type this I realize Chiguh’s scene with the gas station attendant in No County for Old Men is an obvious allusion/representation of the wager and I can’t believe I’m just now figuring it out. “What’s at stake?” “Everything.”)
—if you choose God exists (and have lived your life that way), and He does not exist, you have only lost a finite amount (whatever you sacrificed in living your life as if God exists)
—if you choose God exists and He does exist, you gained an infinite amount (eternal life, happiness, etc...)
—if you choose God does not exist (and live your life accordingly) and He does not exist, you have only gained a finite amount (however better you’d have perceived your life to have been had you lived it knowing there was no God)
—if you choose God does not exist and He does exist, you have lost an infinite amount (eternity of hell, torture, and misery without God)
—given that and what’s at stake, the only reasonable choice, is to choose that God exists (and live accordingly)
What always bothered me—and Pascal does address this—is that I don’t think “belief” is a choice. You either truly believe something or you don’t, you can’t choose to believe anything. This cup I am looking at is blue. I can’t choose to truly believe it’s red, try as I might. You can tell you’ll give me $10 billion to believe it’s red, but I won’t be able to make myself. There are no amount of stakes—finite or infinite—that can make me genuinely believe this cup is red. I can say I believe it’s red, but in my heart and head, I will still believe it’s blue. Why is that?
It’s because it goes against everything I understand. All of my reason and experience tells me it’s blue. And since all I am (relative to understanding) is a product of my inherited intellect (which is either simply genetic or God-given—either way, completely out of my control) and my experiences (where I was born, into what family, everything I’ve observed/learned or absorbed through reading, talking, listening, etc..) which, at some level, have been predetermined, how can I be held responsible and punished—by a loving God who created me, no less—for not being ale to convince myself to genuinely believe something that I genuinely do not believe—cannot believe?
That has always been my argument against hell. Not against the existence of God, but rather His decision to punish His creation for something that, ultimately, is not in my control. Like I can’t make myself genuinely believe my blue cup is red, others aren’t able to genuinely believe that God exists, or the literal resurrection and divinity of Christ, whatever. I can’t wrap my head around that God. It goes against my understanding of His nature defined by His given Grace (as I understand it, of course).
Jesus Christ (pun intended), I just realize how much I’ve rambled on. Forgive me.
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 1:27 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:18 pm to Darth_Vader
The problem with all sides of the universal origins argument comes from the fact that we have a finite understanding of how things work. We humans box our understanding within the constraints of things we live under like time, starting points, things like that. If there is a "higher way" that us humans can't comprehend then that's where things like faith come in for believers and such. Even for those who aren't religious, there's still an illogical leap that has to be made at some point. But alas as humans we are always going to be chasing our tails collectively about how things took place.
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:24 pm to Darth_Vader
You see, there was this magic rock that’s always existed and one day it just blew up because gravity and shite, and then all these crazy shaped asteroids became planets as gravity and shite made them so, then they started colliding with each other and forming moons and shite, add in some more gravity and magic asteroids hitting planets which carried magic water and magic life hit certain planets, well one that we know of, and then millions of years of evolution, and poof... here you and all these millions of other species, organisms, etc living perfect with one another to sustain life are.
Congratulations, you won the astronomically unbelievable universe lottery.
The end...
Congratulations, you won the astronomically unbelievable universe lottery.
The end...
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:24 pm to MLU
quote:
I've always laughed at the notion that when people don't know how something happened they find it perfectly reasonable to just make something up.
And scientists are so quick to dismiss something that they can't prove or disprove so they call it hooey.
If you want to disprove the existence of God or a creator, that's fine but use the same methodology in disproving it that you do anything else and not just arbitrarily say He or She doesn't exist and that it's a figment of believer's imaginations.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:27 pm to Darth_Vader
Really, the age old 'How did something start from nothing?' question?
I'm a science guy and don't have the balls to place my faith in a future scientific explanation for this one...
Some of the continued Higgs boson, dark and anti-matter discoveries are quite intriguing but I'll play it safe.
I'm a science guy and don't have the balls to place my faith in a future scientific explanation for this one...
Some of the continued Higgs boson, dark and anti-matter discoveries are quite intriguing but I'll play it safe.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:29 pm to stratman
Most scientists in the world are not propagandists. They are simply limited to the confines of the modern scientific/academic community which operates under methodological and philosophical naturalism. It's sad, really.
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:34 pm to Huey Lewis
quote:Yeah, but in two weeks JBE is gonna let them go back to work.
Anyway, cosmology is probably the most futile science IMO.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:36 pm to oneandonlypost
quote:
I went to church several years with Donald Lydenbell-Bell before he died. He was responsible for discovering black holes. We discussed these issues at great length during the fellowship hour. He was a really nice gentleman and kind to my son in answering such questions.
Did you live in Cambridge?
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:38 pm to crazy4lsu
Yes. Are you a lawyer?
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:39 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
The problem with all sides of the universal origins argument comes from the fact that we have a finite understanding of how things work. We humans box our understanding within the constraints of things we live under like time, starting points, things like that
Exactly. Those who the multiverse theory to explain how the Big Bang happened are just adding another step, kicking the proverbial can (backwards) down the road. Now, the only logical next question is “What/Who created the multiverses?” A lot is a matter of simple semantics on some level. Eventually, we all wind up at the same place, and the only intellectually honest answer is “I don’t know because as a human, I am not capable of truly knowing.” That’s not to say that trying to discover that truth (from all “sides” and disciplines) is not worth it. On the contrary, it’s the the thing most worthy of attempted discovery. Even if we’ll never fully get there.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:41 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
As a Christian, I don't believe I'm capable of securing my own salvation to begin with.
Sounds a little predestinationy at first glance
Posted on 5/4/20 at 1:51 pm to oneandonlypost
quote:
Yes. Are you a lawyer?
Haha no, I was just asking. I was obsessed with the history of physics in the early 20th century, and thus Cambridge's department is something I read a lot about. Oppenheimer studied there, along with some other really famous physicists, and the foundations for the theory of black holes was developed at Cavendish, with James Chadwick's discovery of the neutron, and Fritz Zwicky's (who was at Cal Tech) speculation that the neutron model could serve as an alternative model for white dwarfs.
Cambridge's department, and the department at Gottingen were probably the most important accumulation of scientific talent between the world wars. The roster of Nobel winners to come through both institutions around the same time period is amazing.
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:04 pm to crazy4lsu
Passed by the old Cavendish Laboratory everyday on my way to work.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:05 pm to oneandonlypost
quote:
oneandonlypost
quote:
13 posts
lies
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:07 pm to Hot Carl
Ha! It's something I tell myself at least.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:07 pm to Darth_Vader
Everything as we understand was compacted and superdense. It's what the math as we currently understand it points to.
The problem for humans is despite our imagination, we lack ability to appreciate scale after a certain level.
Like trying to compare a supernova to a flame igniting vs the detonation of a tsar bombs to represent the big bang does nothing to show vast gulf between what are both ultimately creation events.
The problem for humans is despite our imagination, we lack ability to appreciate scale after a certain level.
Like trying to compare a supernova to a flame igniting vs the detonation of a tsar bombs to represent the big bang does nothing to show vast gulf between what are both ultimately creation events.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:14 pm to Darth_Vader
Over periods of time (time is actually our invention to attempt to make eternal - no beginning and no end - stuff make some sense), periods of time infinitely greater than our understanding, the universe had been expanding and contracting.
The current expansion came from a big bang, and the future contraction will come from gravity. When everything compresses to a point, so dense where there is no subatomic space, the bang occurs.
It is not an explosion per say.
The noise from the last one (there were likely ones before it) is detectable, so is the expansion. We can see it occurring, with no end in sight, using our measurements of time and space.
At some point the expansion will begin to slow and then the contraction or compression of this latest big bang cycle will begin. All of this takes periods of time so great, we have no comprehension, other than to say the time intervals approach multiple partial eternities.
When the compression is complete, another big bang will occur and the cycle will start again.
For this to occur, there must be a "center of the universe" No one has any idea where the center is, but at the moment, everything is expanding out in all directions from that point, where the big bang occurred and evidently, as well as we can see from our position on the field of play, from everything else. Will everything contract back to that same "center of the universe" point? Who knows!
There is a Nobel Prize in physics waiting for anyone who can figure out how to figure it out.
I believe God has all of that figured out, since in the span of eternity, he has seen this happen an infinite number of times over the span of eternity past. He will also see it an infinite number of times across eternity future. That is what it means when we say, He had no beginning and will have no end. After all, time is our construct and not His.
Oh well, I plan on being dead within ten years, if not within the next four weeks, so this universal expansion and contraction stuff, over quadrillions of years raised to powers of quadrillions, makes no difference to me at all.
If I could figure out how to live, and my 401k continues to grow, I would be the richest dead man in the cosmos when the next bang occurs! So I do have that going for me. Sort of like winning the Lottery!

The current expansion came from a big bang, and the future contraction will come from gravity. When everything compresses to a point, so dense where there is no subatomic space, the bang occurs.
It is not an explosion per say.
The noise from the last one (there were likely ones before it) is detectable, so is the expansion. We can see it occurring, with no end in sight, using our measurements of time and space.
At some point the expansion will begin to slow and then the contraction or compression of this latest big bang cycle will begin. All of this takes periods of time so great, we have no comprehension, other than to say the time intervals approach multiple partial eternities.
When the compression is complete, another big bang will occur and the cycle will start again.
For this to occur, there must be a "center of the universe" No one has any idea where the center is, but at the moment, everything is expanding out in all directions from that point, where the big bang occurred and evidently, as well as we can see from our position on the field of play, from everything else. Will everything contract back to that same "center of the universe" point? Who knows!
There is a Nobel Prize in physics waiting for anyone who can figure out how to figure it out.
I believe God has all of that figured out, since in the span of eternity, he has seen this happen an infinite number of times over the span of eternity past. He will also see it an infinite number of times across eternity future. That is what it means when we say, He had no beginning and will have no end. After all, time is our construct and not His.
Oh well, I plan on being dead within ten years, if not within the next four weeks, so this universal expansion and contraction stuff, over quadrillions of years raised to powers of quadrillions, makes no difference to me at all.
If I could figure out how to live, and my 401k continues to grow, I would be the richest dead man in the cosmos when the next bang occurs! So I do have that going for me. Sort of like winning the Lottery!
This post was edited on 5/4/20 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:34 pm to Tigerhead
quote:
When god was created
Actually it was many gods, not God.
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:42 pm to TigerChief10
Or eternal damnation. Don’t forget about that part. You don’t automatically go to heaven
Posted on 5/4/20 at 2:59 pm to Lucky_Stryke
quote:
I've always laughed at the notion that some people there is no god but believe that there was nothing, then a huge explosion from that nothing that created everything.
I’m laughing that you think there’s a magical man sitting in the clouds “controlling” things that have scientific explanations.
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