re: Female Marine at Airport .I can do 5 pull ups. Obama can do 1.

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And putting a mixed male & female crew on a tank is all but assuring there will be issues.

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This issue can be resolved with training, crew selection, professionalism, time, etc.

However, the gender pared physical requirements cannot be overcome.

I even said the other day - maybe a female could make a passable driver or gunner, but loader would be a job they simply couldn't do to the standards of a man.

Then I realized what I said - and what it meant. Either loader will become a "second class" job - OR the standards for everyone will be lower - because that's exactly what we need - lowered standards.

(Or an auto-loader will be on the next generation of US tanks - negating our advantage in training a human crew to outperform a machine.)

Huh, learn something new everyday.

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This issue can be resolved with training, crew selection, professionalism, time, etc.

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I was in combat arms so I never actually had females in close proximity below the brigade level. But from what I've heard from buddies who were in combat support units (maintenance, transport, etc), there was always issues of romance, hormones, or harassment. And while training and things can be effective, there will always be the matter of human nature. It's simply a fact of life that if you take a bunch of 18-20 yr old males and females, put them in high stress situations far from home, nature will take it's course.

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I even said the other day - maybe a female could make a passable driver or gunner, but loader would be a job they simply couldn't do to the standards of a man. Then I realized what I said - and what it meant. Either loader will become a "second class" job - OR the standards for everyone will be lower - because that's exactly what we need - lowered standards.

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The problem there is on a tank crew you've got to know your job and the job of the next guy in case he goes down.

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Or an auto-loader will be on the next generation of US tanks - negating our advantage in training a human crew to outperform a machine.)

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Auto-loaders suck. The Soviets designed them into their tanks and there are two huge disadvatages there. (1) They are actually much slower than a human loader. If memory serves me correctly, the Soviet auto loader takes something like 7 - 9 seconds to load the gun. And (2) with an auto loader, you're limited to whatever round is next in the ammo rack (it's actually a carousel). This can be a problem when for example a tank is what is coming at you and you've got HEAT round that is "next" in the rack. You have to fire that HEAT round (or rounds) until you can get to the next Sabot round. Having a human loader gives the tank commander the flexibility to decide on a shot by shot basis what round he wants to fire next.

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This can be a problem when for example a tank is what is coming at you and you've got HEAT round that is "next" in the rack. You have to fire that HEAT round (or rounds) until you can get to the next Sabot round.

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"Gunner, sabot, idiot!"

"Identified!"

"Fire!"

"On the way!"

(ETA: I read Team Yankee before enlisting. )

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Sex in a tank would be cool though

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As someone who spent a decade of his life inside one.... it would be virtually impossible anywhere except maybe the loader's seat. Believe it or not, even though the Abrams is a huge monster, inside it's extremely cramped. This is especially true for the driver,isolated in the hull in a reclining position with abut the same amount of room as you'd have in a coffin, and the gunner, down in the bottom of the RH side of the turret in front of the commander, scrunched in with the main gun to his left and gunners sights to his front. The commander has almost as much room to move around as the loader. But even here it's not much.

Gunner's station



driver's station

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"Gunner, sabot, idiot!"
"Identified!"
"Fire!"
"On the way!"

(ETA: I read Team Yankee before enlisting. )

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Cool. Only one thing is missing there.... The loader's part. When the TC gives the command "Gunner, sabot, tank", the loader immediately grabs a sabot round and loads it into the main gun. As soon as the breechblock closes, he raises the arming lever, thus "arming" the gun to fire. Until he does this, the gun will not fire. As soon as he raises this arming lever, the loader yells "UP!". Once the commander hears "UP!" from the loader, then and only then does he give the command "fire" to the gunner. As soon as the gunner hears fire" He gives the "on the way!" and fires the gun. So it goes like this...

Tank Commander: "Gunner, sabot, tank"
(this alerts the gunner there is a tank target, the commander points the turret in the general direction of the target, and the command tells the loader what round needs to be loaded.)

Gunner: "Identified"
(This is the gunner telling the commander he has identified the target and put the aiming reticle on the target. The commander will be looking though his sight to verify this is the case.)

Loader: "Up"
(This tells the commander the desired round is loaded in the main gun and is ready to be fired and he is out of the way of the coming recoil when the gun is fired)

Commander: "Fire"
Tells the gunner to fire at the target after he verifies the gunner is on the target and the proper round is loaded and the gun is ready to fire.

Gunner: "On the Way"
Alerts the whole crew that the main gun is being fired.

All this takes place in about 5-7 seconds.

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From a dumb grunt to a tanker. I appreciate you guys saving my arse more than once. I remember getting yanked back by my squad leader once by the back of my flak when I tried to walk up to the front of the tank when it was about to fire once. I think he threw me back about 5 feet.

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Being close to an Abrams when it fires is something I'd not recommend to anyone. I remember once in Germany we had stopped for a bit and my TC told me to get a quick nap (it was my turn) as we were going to be stopped for about 20 minutes. I was the loader at that time so I just pulled off my CVC helmet and laid down on top of the turret right behind the loader's hatch (That's the hatch on the left side of the turret). Well I was so exhausted that I fell into a deep sleep almost immediately. Well at some point our wingman tank pulled up next to us close enough that you could step from out tank to theirs. While they were parked there they fired their main gun while I was still asleep on top of our tank right next to them. The noise and shock wave left me stunned and completely deaf for a good 30 minutes to an hour. I laterally could not hear anything other than ringing in my ears. I wanted to kill those bastards.

didn't read the thread but you should've punched that wook in the face and told her she has no business in my corps. (even if you aren't a marine)

Cove you are so right.I'm almost 72 and I did 9 pull ups last night...

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Well that's the thing you see. The idiots in Washington are making the Marines and Army open up virtually all combat arms MOS's (infantry, armor, cavalry, and artillery) to females. It's fricking stupid and it's going to get people killed when we have another war. It's going to make moral go into the tank and unit cohesion will go to shite. Long story short, they're fricking up the combat effectiveness of the armed forces of our armed forces. Only a fricking idiot would think it's a good idea to mix women with men in combat arms units.

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The AF already tried with female officers going through TACP school and take a guess how that went. Soon they will have the chance to try PJ and CCT