re: Did Hitler Die in the bunker

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I figure he killed himself, just like the story goes, but without further evidence, there is plenty of room for reasonable doubt.

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Sure, but that isn't the standard of proof except for criminal cases. You would agree, would you not, that more likely than not, he killed himself, pretty much as the story goes?

So, beyond that - it is merely conjecture. Bormann was fleeing with the money and he didn't make it out of Berlin. They didn't identify him until well later. So, even if Hitler and Braun made a run for it, it's very likely they were killed in the chaos. I think his last real chance to get out was gone when the Russians overran the airfield, which is the reported date of the suicide.

This all goes to Occam's Razor -

1. His birthday (somewhat meloncholy as the turn of the fortunes of war) is on April 20th.

2. April 21 - Hitler orders Steiner to counterattack (Steiner's forces were outnumbered 10:1)

3. April 22nd - Steiner tells Hitler (ETA: via Jodl, who was at the bunker) he did not have the capacity for the counterattack. Himmler, without authorization, offers to surrender to the West, but not Russia. Hitler concedes defeat at the bunker after Steiner says he cannot conduct the attack as ordered.

4. April 23rd - Goring suggests to Hitler (via telegram) that Goring take over (he was outside the salient).

5. April 27th (unknown if Hitler actually knew of this in real time, or that he learned over the next 3 days) - Allies flatly refuse anything but unconditional surrender.

6. April 29th - Schweinitz and Wenner sign the surrender (ETA: at Caserta -this was primarily surrendering the German military forces in Italy). Hitler marries Braun. He also learns of Mussolini's fate this day - the assassination and gruesome public display of Il Duce and his mistress.

7. April 30th - the Red Army gets on the same block as the bunker. They overrun the airfield cutting off the air and ground routes out of the city. The staff flee but virtually all are captured by the Red Army.

The Goebbels killed themselves and their children the next day, on May 1st.


So, what conclusion would you draw, even if you were generally disinclined to believe Hitler shot himself after making sure Braun poisoned herself?

More likely than not, Hitler killed himself after making sure Braun had successfully poisoned herself on April 29th, 1945, and their bodies were disposed of by the staff - generally the accepted story.

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Schweinitz and Wenner sign the unconditional surrender.

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Jodl and Friedeburg signed the uncon surrender? at the behest of Donitz... correct me if I'm wrong

you're whole synopsis is spot on

Google is your friend.
"Finding Hitler" had me asking a lot of questions.
I have forensic training and I am qualified to make judgments on forensic identification cases.
Hitler's pre and postmortem dental radiographs are in google images.
Photos of Hitler's jaw with his dental work that the Russians have is in google images.
There are copies of the Allies interrogation of Hitler's Dentist and dental assistant as well as his doctor.
There is an excellent forensic article on Hitler's identification. This article was written by a leading forensic pathologist. There is no question Hitler died in the bunker.
Look around it's all there.

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Jodl and Friedeburg signed the uncon surrender? at the behest of Donitz... correct me if I'm wrong

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More or less on May 6th, yes. I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply Caserta was the whole shooting match - Schweinitz and Wenner unconditionally surrendered all German military forces in Italy (Italy, herself, had already changed sides).

Nah this topic is pretty cool