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Started By
Message
re: Derek Chauvin trial - GUILTY ON ALL CHARGES. Update: His sentencing is today
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:47 pm to Rebel
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:47 pm to Rebel
just 1 page ago - you denying that homicide meant one caused another's death
Maybe something is lost in translation, looking for clarification where this is going astray.
medical examiners consider homicide = 1 persons actions resulted in the death of another.
ME determined this was a homicide, in this case, means death via CP arrest resulted from police subdual and restraint. He is saying police (in the medical sense) committed homicide because their actions resulted in the death. this is not speaking to legal responsibility determining homicide.
quote:
no. not "caused". he was very clear about that. like I keep telling you, it is the medical definition of homicide. not the legal definition that you are stuck on.
quote:
yes, AMS. The final straw was caused by the police detaining George Floyd.
Maybe something is lost in translation, looking for clarification where this is going astray.
medical examiners consider homicide = 1 persons actions resulted in the death of another.
ME determined this was a homicide, in this case, means death via CP arrest resulted from police subdual and restraint. He is saying police (in the medical sense) committed homicide because their actions resulted in the death. this is not speaking to legal responsibility determining homicide.
3
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:48 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
The ME clearly stated today that he didn’t think chauvins knee on the neck caused asphyxiation. It’s because it’s blatantly obvious to anyone who knows the anatomy
When asked about cutting off the blood from one side of the neck he actually said, "That wouldn't matter. Most people have 2 carotid arteries."
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:50 pm to AMS
You have a logic fail, glaring you right in the face.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:50 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
From pressure ON THE FRONT of the neck
That’s how this whole argument started, I said pressure on the back or one side of the neck can’t compress the airway.
The ME clearly stated today that he didn’t think chauvins knee on the neck caused asphyxiation. It’s because it’s blatantly obvious to anyone who knows the anatomy
except that it can be compressed laterally, to the exact same degree of compression as midline pressure.
from the same article -
quote:quote:
In all cases of lateral movement, still there was very visible compression of the postcricoid hypopharynx by either the anterior portion of the vertebral body or the deep neck muscles lateral to the vertebral body. Notably, this compression was to the same degree as in subjects in whom the cricoid was midline during the application of CP.
eta - the only thing you were correct about was no compression with force applied to the posterior neck. which was a lie you made up about the testimony, because he clearly referred to force applied to the side.
This post was edited on 4/9/21 at 9:55 pm
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:53 pm to AMS
quote:
AMS
Let's go back to the words.
quote:
Baker concluded that Floyd's death was a homicide — which as a forensic pathologist he explained means that someone else was involved in the death, not necessarily that it was criminal.
Blackwell asked how it was the subdual, restraint and neck compression caused Floyd's death.
Involved. Homicide because another person was
"Involved"
INVOLVED not "caused". Involved.
Involved
quote:
not necessarily that it was criminal.
Not necessarily that it was criminal. -- a very big distinction.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 9:58 pm to Rebel
I’ll help both of you out.
A person with heart disease dies while being lawfully detained by police as a result of complications stemming from ingestion of meth and fentanyl. This is homicide.
Per Minnesota statute, who committed the homicide?
The cop or the person who provided the drugs?
Hint: the prosecutions star witness decided to take the fifth.
A person with heart disease dies while being lawfully detained by police as a result of complications stemming from ingestion of meth and fentanyl. This is homicide.
Per Minnesota statute, who committed the homicide?
The cop or the person who provided the drugs?
Hint: the prosecutions star witness decided to take the fifth.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:02 pm to Rebel
quote:
somehow you are inferring Baker testified that Chauvin is responsible for the death for George Floyd. He was very deliberate in saying that was not the case.
“ In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take, by virtue of those heart conditions," Baker concluded.
He later reconfirmed his finding of homicide.
Baker says Floyd death was homicide, death caused by another person. He says the “law enforcement subdual and restraint” was more than Floyd’s heart could take. The subdual and restraint caused the death.
Who performed the subdual and restraint? Chauvin.
Subdual and restraint “performed by law enforcement” ( Chauvin ) was more than Floyd could take, due to his heart condition, and resulted in Floyd’s death, a homicide.
Please, if you would, quote where Baker testifies that Chauvin is NOT responsible for Floyd’s death. I don’t know that he did not, I’d just like to see it for myself.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:02 pm to Rebel
quote:
not necessarily that it was criminal.
Not necessarily that it was criminal. -- a very big distinction.
not really the ME was never going to make that distinction. it would be unreasonable to do so as a ME.
I agree lets go back to the words.
quote:
But Baker reiterated he stood by the cause of death he wrote on Floyd's death certificate and his finding Floyd's death was a homicide, which to a medical examiner means his death was caused by another person and does not necessarily indicate guilt.
quote:
Caused by another person "caused"
Caused not "involved". caused.
caused
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:04 pm to AMS
quote:
medical examiners consider homicide = 1 persons actions resulted in the death of another.
quote:
medical examiners consider homicide = 1 persons was involved with the death of another.
it's obvious you are going to hear what you want to hear. this trial is as serious as it gets. when Chauvin is acquitted, property will burn and more people are going to die. i blame the media for not reporting objectively. i blame people like you that are simply too thick to understand simple words and their meanings.
because of the seriousness is the reason I've put forth the effort to try to explain to you what I've heard while watching the trail.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:06 pm to AMS
quote:
his death was caused by another person and does not necessarily indicate guilt.
let's take that further.
does not necessarily indicate guilt.
DOES NOT INDICATE GUILT.
Reasonable doubt.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:08 pm to Rebel
quote:
it's obvious you are going to hear what you want to hear. this trial is as serious as it gets. when Chauvin is acquitted, property will burn and more people are going to die. i blame the media for not reporting objectively. i blame people like you that are simply too thick to understand simple words and their meanings.
because of the seriousness is the reason I've put forth the effort to try to explain to you what I've heard while watching the trail.
im only quoting Dr. Baker. not my interpretation of them, what was said under oath from the article you posted.
quote:
Baker reiterated he stood by the cause of death he wrote on Floyd's death certificate and his finding Floyd's death was a homicide, which to a medical examiner means his death was caused by another person
This post was edited on 4/9/21 at 10:09 pm
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:10 pm to AMS
why did you edit this?
you left out the part of "does not necessarily indicate guilt"
quote:
Baker reiterated he stood by the cause of death he wrote on Floyd's death certificate and his finding Floyd's death was a homicide, which to a medical examiner means his death was caused by another person
you left out the part of "does not necessarily indicate guilt"
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:17 pm to AMS
this is the last time i'll try to show you.
this one is important.
quote:
"Now in the context of an altercation with other people that involves things like physical restraint, that involves things like being held to the ground, that involves things like the pain you would incur from having your cheek up against the asphalt, an abrasion on your shoulder – those events are going to cause stress hormones to pour out into your body, specifically things like adrenaline," Baker continued. "And what that adrenaline is going to do is it's going to ask your heart to beat faster. It's going to ask your body for more oxygen so that you can get through that altercation."
this one is important.
quote:
"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take, by virtue of those heart conditions," Baker concluded.
quote:
"The top line of the cause of death is really what you think is the most important thing that you think precipitated the death. Other things that you think played a role in the death but were not direct causes" appear in the "other significant conditions" part of the death certificate, Baker explained.
"Mr. Floyd's use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint, his heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint," Baker said. They were items that may have contributed to his death but were not the direct cause, he said.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:22 pm to Rebel
quote:
NVOLVED not "caused". Involved.
There is no homicide wherein no person caused the death.
Several elements combined to CAUSE the death, only one of which was another person. The bad heart cannot commit homicide and neither the drugs.
________
homicide
n. the killing of a human being due to the act or omission of another.
___________
Baker’s finding was homicide, that one human being killed another. There are no two ways about it.
There is no homicide wherein another person was “involved” but did not cause the death. If the other person did not cause the death, it isn’t homicide.
The finding of homicide by Baker means that his finding is that Floyd was killed by another human being. That human being is Chauvin.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:29 pm to LightMerchant
"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take, by virtue of those heart conditions," Baker concluded.
the subdual, restraint, and neck compression have been testified as a legal method to restrain a person resisting arrest in the state of Minnesota by numerous members of law enforcement.
the only criminal actions that day were Floyd's actions.
the subdual, restraint, and neck compression have been testified as a legal method to restrain a person resisting arrest in the state of Minnesota by numerous members of law enforcement.
the only criminal actions that day were Floyd's actions.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:31 pm to Rebel
quote:
you left out the part of "does not necessarily indicate guilt"
because its not relevant to the fact the ME claimed that police homicided GF, he is explaining its not his role to assign criminal responsibility. thats for the jury.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:38 pm to AMS
quote:
In all cases of lateral movement, still there was very visible compression of the postcricoid hypopharynx by either the anterior portion of the vertebral body or the deep neck muscles lateral to the vertebral body. Notably, this compression was to the same degree as in subjects in whom the cricoid was midline during the application of CP.
They are talking about compression of the esophagus. God you are dense.
The airway has to be pressed against something to compress, it’s too rigid. If you push posterior from the front you are pushing it against the vertebrae and causing minor compression. If you press from the side what are you pushing against?
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:38 pm to Rebel
Rebel, we were debating something other than criminality.
You came in mid-debate and are conflating things.
The debate is:
Did the ME rule that Floyd’s death was a result of police action ( Chauvin’s action )?
AMS and myself have been saying, yes, he did.
Others have been fighting us on that.
You came in mid-debate and are conflating things.
The debate is:
Did the ME rule that Floyd’s death was a result of police action ( Chauvin’s action )?
AMS and myself have been saying, yes, he did.
Others have been fighting us on that.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:44 pm to AMS
I repeat:
There is no homicide wherein no person caused the death.
If the ME rules homicide he is ruling that another person caused the death.
IF his finding was that Chauvin was merely “involved” but did not cause the death, it wouldn’t be homicide.
human-caused death, homicide. Think of it that way.
The human here was not the store clerk or one of the EMT’s or Floyd’s companion. The human who caused death was Chauvin.
There is no homicide wherein no person caused the death.
If the ME rules homicide he is ruling that another person caused the death.
IF his finding was that Chauvin was merely “involved” but did not cause the death, it wouldn’t be homicide.
human-caused death, homicide. Think of it that way.
The human here was not the store clerk or one of the EMT’s or Floyd’s companion. The human who caused death was Chauvin.
Posted on 4/9/21 at 10:45 pm to Rebel
quote:
the subdual, restraint, and neck compression have been testified as a legal method to restrain a person resisting arrest in the state of Minnesota by numerous members of law enforcement.
quote:
that The training materials : "the maximal restraint technique shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage property if not properly restrained."
The slide that includes the photo states that officers should "Place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia."
it may be a legal method if used properly, but the restraint was no longer justifiable during the minutes they knew GF to be pulseless and unconscious. They also did not place him in the recovery position like they were trained, despite colleagues asking to twice.
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