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Message
re: Delphi, IN Murders Trial Thread
Posted on 10/29/24 at 11:16 am to POTUS2024
Posted on 10/29/24 at 11:16 am to POTUS2024
quote:
But it seems strange to me that a guy Allen's size (he's small) could do this to two girls
1) He’s short, but he was stocky back then—he’s lost a lot of weight since. But he was a grown arse 45/46-year-old man and they were 13 and 14 year old girls.
2) HE HAD A frickING GUN. Those tend to make people compliant. At any age. I’d imagine young teenage girls are even more susceptible.
quote:
there's no DNA,
You do agree they were killed, correct? The only DNA on the scene was the girls’. Do you think they killed themselves/each other? Then where’s the weapon? So obviously somebody that was not them killed them, took the murder weapon with them, and didn’t leave behind DNA. That literally happened. I don’t know if they’ve proven it’s Richard Allen beyond a reasonable doubt just yet, but I’m certainly leaning towards the only dude seen out there, who also admitted to being there and wearing the same clothes that the guy on the bridge was wearing.
quote:
no signs of struggle
What signs are you looking for here exactly?
quote:
You can only kill one girl at a time - wouldn't there be a fight by the second girl at least?
The gun is the mitigating factor you seem to forget. He could have lied to them and told them he was gonna let them go if they just did what he said. If they ran or screamed, he would shoot them. Seems pretty reasonable that that would have made them compliant. And they were both nude at some point—the smaller one did wind up putting on the other’s jeans—so that was likely another factor in their compliance, they were completely vulnerable. 2 naked 13/14 year old girls are probably gonna do what a 45-year-old man with a gun pointed at them in the middle of the woods says.
And it appears the smaller girl was killed with just 1 slice to her carotid artery. Her wound was much smaller. Maybe she took off and he caught up with her and killed her real quick then focused his attention to the other one whose death was much more violent. She was sliced/almost repeatedly stabbed all around the front of her neck. Was she his target that he was taking out all his rage on? Or since she was bigger, did she fight back and he was forced to work harder to kill her.
But you’ve got to remember, after he called the tip line to say he was there, the guy that followed up on it (Wildlife and Fisheries guy, maybe), met him at CVS and took his story/statement. Who knows how long they actually talked. But it was February, so he likely had on long pants and a long shirt and jacket. So no cuts or anything would have been visible unless they were on his face, which apparently there weren’t. He wasn’t brought into the station for interrogation until 5 years later.
And people think with stabbings (though I’m not sure these were actually “stabbings” as much as “slicing,” that the killers tend to use so much force that they wind up cutting themselves and leaving their own blood at the scene. Likely true. But he used a box cutter (most likely), which has a very short blade which was not long enough for him slip and cut himself with, so there wouldn’t be any of his blood there.
And he didn’t rape them. Maybe he tried, but couldn’t get it up. Maybe he was interrupted. Maybe he took the missing parties and sock and went home and rubbed one out. Regardless, I’m not sure where all this DNA you guys expected him to leave would have come from.
quote:
Also, I don't believe anyone reported hearing screams or anything - seems like that would have happened.
1) we don’t know what would have happened with young girls like this if he had told them not to scream while pointing a gun at them. Maybe they complied or maybe they froze up
2) or maybe they screamed as loud as they could. This is a much bigger place than I think you realize and there was nobody around to hear it
3) the wind was blowing from west to east that day—so from the bridge to where they were. May have been possible for them to hear somebody screaming from the bridge, but almost no chance of anybody from the bridge being able to hear them from where they were with the wind carrying sound the opposite direction.
quote:
Prosecution's case has just been so weak,
They’ve started slow and are building up. If they rested tomorrow, I’d agree and say that it was a travesty that he was even tried. But they are going to present every single thing they’ve got, and I’m assuming the most damning stuff is coming later. The goal is to convict, not to convict in 2 weeks.
quote:
Makes me wonder if there weren't multiple people and not just one guy.
So it makes more sense to you that multiple people were able to prevent leaving DNA at the scene than just 1?
quote:
and it invites all sorts of alternative explanations like this.
Only if you’re looking for them. Should everybody keep an open mind? Absofrickinglutely. But there is currently zero evidence pointing to anyone else. Not saying they have enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt about Richard Allen yet, just that there’s nothing pointing at a different human being so far. I’m sure the defense will try to introduce evidence to the contrary. We’ll see if the judge lets it in. I hope she does if it’s legally reasonable. Don’t want him to have any legit grounds to appeal on.
2
Posted on 10/29/24 at 11:25 am to Gris Gris
If he said one thing in these confessions only the killer could know that would be enough for me.
Posted on 10/29/24 at 11:27 am to Tiger Ryno
quote:
If he said one thing in these confessions only the killer could know that would be enough for me.
That would be very strong evidence. I anxiously await it.
Posted on 10/29/24 at 11:40 am to Tiger Ryno
quote:
If he said one thing in these confessions only the killer could know that would be enough for me.
I pretty much agree with you there.
The defense's answer to that, however, will be that there was a substantial leak of crime scene info prior to his arrest/confession and supposedly, the list of things "only the killer and LE would know" got a lot smaller.
I've only heard about leak that happened in 2023 (after his arrest)...haven't looked into whether there was one before 2022.
This post was edited on 10/29/24 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 10/29/24 at 12:18 pm to POTUS2024
quote:
However, he wasn't there for the investigation. He was brought in years later and had to work from photos. I'm a bit surprised this type of expert wasn't on the scene originally, and that the crime scene wasn't video taped.
Locals were not ready to take lead on this. This is likely a preview of the defense in Idaho murders going after issues with initial investigation and handling of the crime scene by the locals before state and feds got involved. Find something to take out or create some doubt about the knife sheath evidence.
In Delphi I am surprised it took weeks to gather up the sticks that were covering body (i think the ones without visible blood). Some evidence may not have been as obvious as blood is but in those weeks got degraded and/or weather, animals, & insects helped remove evidence or a stick or two or more.
Not gathering those the day bodies discovered makes me think they weren’t very thorough with evidence collection.
It’s almost like the locals thought they were going to find killer relatively quick due to someone seeing someone with bloody clothes or finding blood that couldn’t be cleaned up that quickly on initial sex offender suspects. That in a small town it would be difficult to keep others from knowing or reporting to police their concerns due to nature of the crime. After awhile with no one arrested they then bring in others to look at evidence or pictures of it when they should have been done this from the start.
5 years is a long time to dump stuff, burn stuff, clean stuff, and even find a used similar jacket to the one worn that day and then burn or dump the original to avoid investigation finding something that could be cleaned up enough for naked eye of family and friends but not enough for forensic testing.
For anyone - were the strands of hair that were not able to be tested for DNA described in any manner like color, curly or straight, any residue on them, and so on. I have just read summaries on testimonies, but in those summaries I didn’t read about either side asking.
Then there was another hair the expert said could have been from an animal, but it doesn’t seem like they did much to verify one way or the other.
This post was edited on 10/29/24 at 12:21 pm
Posted on 10/29/24 at 2:16 pm to dallastigers
There are transcripts from interviews of Allen from 2022 in the link below. I believe the jury saw those interviews before lunch break.
WTHR.com
WTHR.com
Posted on 10/29/24 at 6:42 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
2) HE HAD A frickING GUN. Those tend to make people compliant. At any age. I’d imagine young teenage girls are even more susceptible.
Compliant for a person to walk up and start slashing you? After watching your friend get cut up? I really don't know, but listening to some attorneys that have had all sorts of cases in this realm, they said it was very strange to not see signs of fighting / fleeing, etc.
quote:
You do agree they were killed, correct? The only DNA on the scene was the girls’. Do you think they killed themselves/each other? Then where’s the weapon? So obviously somebody that was not them killed them, took the murder weapon with them, and didn’t leave behind DNA. That literally happened. I don’t know if they’ve proven it’s Richard Allen beyond a reasonable doubt just yet, but I’m certainly leaning towards the only dude seen out there, who also admitted to being there and wearing the same clothes that the guy on the bridge was wearing.
Multiple cars and more than a few people out there that day. And witnesses describe Bridge Guy as someone very different from Allen. LE admitted this during testimony.
quote:
What signs are you looking for here exactly?
How about the killer's skin under the girls' fingernails? Or an attempt to get free of restraints?
quote:
The gun is the mitigating factor you seem to forget.
The problem with the gun is that we don't know if it was present. That round could have been there already. I'm not forgetting it at all - the prosecution has provided nothing that shows it was involved or that Allen had it with him, or that the round came from his weapon. What you suggest with the firearm all makes sense - assuming things went down a certain way - but there's no evidence to confirm any of it, meaning alternatives must also be evaluated. I did a quick search and a site says that .40 S&W is the #3 most common handgun cartridge and the P226 is perhaps SigSauer's most popular model ever (it comes in multiple calibers). It's not like this weapon or caliber are rare.
quote:
But you’ve got to remember, after he called the tip line to say he was there, the guy that followed up on it (Wildlife and Fisheries guy, maybe), met him at CVS and took his story/statement. Who knows how long they actually talked. But it was February, so he likely had on long pants and a long shirt and jacket. So no cuts or anything would have been visible unless they were on his face, which apparently there weren’t. He wasn’t brought into the station for interrogation until 5 years later.
You would expect cuts on his hands more than anything, if he was in the woods, struggling with some girls, handling a cutting device etc. None of that was reported or noticed by that wildlife agent, it appears. The same type of clothes were allegedly worn by him on the bridge - probably not likely he sustained any sort of cut through that jacket or even the pants. Again, the hands is what I would think are going to be injured a bit. Also in that environment, you would think maybe some scratches or something on his jacket, but I haven't heard them present anything like that so far. Maybe later.
quote:
And he didn’t rape them. Maybe he tried, but couldn’t get it up. Maybe he was interrupted. Maybe he took the missing parties and sock and went home and rubbed one out. Regardless, I’m not sure where all this DNA you guys expected him to leave would have come from.
DNA gets left behind on handshakes. It's very strange that no DNA was found.
quote:
1) we don’t know what would have happened with young girls like this if he had told them not to scream while pointing a gun at them. Maybe they complied or maybe they froze up
2) or maybe they screamed as loud as they could. This is a much bigger place than I think you realize and there was nobody around to hear it
3) the wind was blowing from west to east that day—so from the bridge to where they were. May have been possible for them to hear somebody screaming from the bridge, but almost no chance of anybody from the bridge being able to hear them from where they were with the wind carrying sound the opposite direction.
All good points.
quote:
So it makes more sense to you that multiple people were able to prevent leaving DNA at the scene than just 1?
Multiple people suggests coordination and planning, so in a way, yes. But no DNA is very odd, regardless. And it's not just DNA - no fibers on the girls that might have come from his jacket or hat or whatever. I mean, there's nothing there. That's strange.
quote:
Only if you’re looking for them. Should everybody keep an open mind? Absofrickinglutely. But there is currently zero evidence pointing to anyone else. Not saying they have enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt about Richard Allen yet, just that there’s nothing pointing at a different human being so far. I’m sure the defense will try to introduce evidence to the contrary. We’ll see if the judge lets it in. I hope she does if it’s legally reasonable. Don’t want him to have any legit grounds to appeal on.
You're working from confirmation bias here. The lack of another suspect contributes nothing to his guilt. They are trying to convict this guy of murder because he was in the area - they can't even put him in proximity to the murder scene and witness descriptions of Bridge Guy don't match him. Looking at alternatives is a must and the prosecution and some shoddy LE work left the door open for this. The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. That means alternative explanations are in play and must be considered and that proof of his guilt comes from affirmative evidence, not a process of elimination after having no one else to accuse.
This guy might be guilty but no evidence exists as of now.
Posted on 10/29/24 at 6:51 pm to Tiger Ryno
quote:
If he said one thing in these confessions only the killer could know that would be enough for me.
I'm very skeptical about this because there's missing video of his interrogations and LE is saying "we had some technical issues". Super shady. I think we're going to see the defense rip apart the Reid technique of interrogation and there's going to be a strong suggestion that LE fed him information as they were trying to interrogate him and get him to confess - and that emerged in his confessions later. Some of the attorney analysts I've been watching have already mentioned this. You can see it coming. I think the jury does as well.
After everything I've seen thus far, LE has been clowned by the defense and I expect that to continue. If this guy is guilty and walks, LE has no one to blame but themselves. The one thing the judge has done well, it seems, is to insure this does not become a circus and end up as a mistrial. If this guy walks, that's it, they aren't getting another shot at him.
Posted on 10/29/24 at 7:12 pm to lachellie
Big swing from early interviews and his denials. Sometimes pressure, suicide watch, and isolation will get someone to admit anything; but it can also get someone to become tired of putting up a fake front and playing games after awhile as well. If they also have recordings with wife it will interesting to hear how he sounds.
https://www.wishtv.com/news/crime-watch-8/delphi-murders/delphi-murders-trial-day-10-live-blog/
quote:.
The state then showed the jury Exhibit #292: Richard Allen’s request for an interview. It read, “I am ready to officially confess to killing Abby and Libby. I hope I get the chance to apologize to their families.”
Galipeau described the several times Allen admitted and apologized to him about the murders. Allen also told him that he threw out the box cutter used to kill the girls in a CVS dumpster. It wasn’t clear if this was the CVS Allen was employed at. Despite the confession, Galipeau said Allen’s treatment did not change
quote:
The state’s next witness was Ofc. Michael Clemons. Clemons has worked at Westville Correctional Facility for four years, and monitored Richard Allen and documented his actions in real time.
Clemons’ log from April 6, 2023, was displayed to the court. The following time stamps are quotes Clemons documented from Allen.
7:30 a.m.: “God, I am so glad nobody game up on me after I killed Abby and Libby.”
8:01 a.m.: “I, Richard Matthew Allen, killed Abby and Libby all by myself, nobody helped me.”
8:03 a.m.: “I am not crazy, I am only acting like I’m crazy.”
https://www.wishtv.com/news/crime-watch-8/delphi-murders/delphi-murders-trial-day-10-live-blog/
This post was edited on 10/29/24 at 7:15 pm
Posted on 10/29/24 at 7:16 pm to Hot Carl
Thanks Grey Hughes for your detailed analysis
Posted on 10/29/24 at 9:32 pm to POTUS2024
quote:
You're working from confirmation bias here. The lack of another suspect contributes nothing to his guilt. They are trying to convict this guy of murder because he was in the area - they can't even put him in proximity to the murder scene and witness descriptions of Bridge Guy don't match him. Looking at alternatives is a must and the prosecution and some shoddy LE work left the door open for this.
Once again, who else was there? You are making things up for some reason?
There’s 0 evidence really of anyone being there. There’s no evidence of anyone else being there, there’s no evidence of someone other than Allen being there. There’s no evidence of multiple people being there? So why are you so unsure it’s not Allen?
The investigation was 5+ years before Allen was arrested. You keep saying the police focused on him and didn’t look elsewhere, but frankly that couldn’t be any further from the truth it appears. They looked for anyone but Allen for years.
The biggest LE screw up was not interrogating Allen within days of the murders and everyone else that was there on site that day that day. I’m somewhat perplexed why he was never brought in if he was in fact only interviewed by a fish and game officer outside of a police station.
Posted on 10/29/24 at 10:17 pm to baldona
quote:
There’s 0 evidence really of anyone being there. There’s no evidence of anyone else being there, there’s no evidence of someone other than Allen being there. There’s no evidence of multiple people being there? So why are you so unsure it’s not Allen?
There are a few people who described someone who was wearing different clothes and looked completely different than Richard Allen
Posted on 10/30/24 at 8:46 am to Hot Carl
quote:
And he was gaining ground pretty swiftly.
How can you possibly know this from the fraction of a second of greatly zoomed video that the "bridge guy" was on?
Posted on 10/30/24 at 8:50 am to baldona
quote:
The biggest LE screw up was not interrogating Allen within days of the murders and everyone else that was there on site that day that day.
I don't think they knew who he was until he called in, right?
Posted on 10/30/24 at 8:57 am to bikerack
quote:
I pretty much agree with you there.
The defense's answer to that, however, will be that there was a substantial leak of crime scene info prior to his arrest/confession and supposedly, the list of things "only the killer and LE would know" got a lot smaller.
Not to mention they showed him crime scene photos, which you could probably derive the cause of death by just looking at them.
Posted on 10/30/24 at 9:26 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
There are a few people who described someone who was wearing different clothes and looked completely different than Richard Allen
Sorry I meant there is no evidence of anyone at the crime scene? No foot prints. No dna. No signs of anyone but the girls? There’s certainly not signs of 2 other people at the crime scene, such as 2 sets of shoe prints in the ground or fingerprints? That I have seen?
You are talking about someone else on the trail? Do we have any evidence the other person on the trail was around the girls at all or just at the trail during that time? Eye witness accounts are notoriously poor in details so idk.
I’m not trying to say it was Allen. But I am saying without better evidence it was someone other than Allen it’s pretty damn difficult to rule Allen out just due to lack of better evidence. I’m not suggesting convicting him, but it seems as though LE and the DA maybe dropping the ball here
Posted on 10/30/24 at 9:27 am to Gris Gris
quote:
don't think they knew who he was until he called in, right?
Probably, but was that not fairly quickly like the next day after they were found dead?
Posted on 10/30/24 at 9:38 am to baldona
quote:
Probably, but was that not fairly quickly like the next day after they were found dead?
I believe it was 3 days afterward.
Posted on 10/30/24 at 10:37 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
How can you possibly know this from the fraction of a second of greatly zoomed video that the "bridge guy" was on?
Because that video/audio was actually 43 (or 47) seconds long uninterrupted. The public hasn’t seen it, but the jury did. And watch one of those Gray Hughes animations I posted. He used that fraction of a second, greatly zoomed in piece of video to determine landmarks on the bridge that he was able to match on Google Earth to tell exactly where he was. And then used basic math and how long it took before the “guys, down the hill” audio was picked up to do an animation re-creation.
There were some other things the girls said—one said something to the effect of “he’s got a gun,” but they could have seen and said that before he got to them. You’d have to imagine he was right up on them before he ordered them down the hill, though. He did this 5 years ago, though, so it’s likely not perfect—although the it was good to determine the landmarks on the bridge because they’ve since re-done it and it doesn’t look anything like it used to. Regardless, it gives you a good idea of how it likely went down. Not exact, but close.
I’d watch that video and the 3rd video I posted. The 3rd one used time stamps of the girls’ SnapChat pic and video, the 3 girls (probably a smaller 4th too) taking a pic by a bench at 1:26, the car that looked like the one he owned being caught heading towards where he says he parked on video at 1:27, where he likely passed them, where he admitted he was on the bridge (1st platform), where another witness saw what she says is him (the 1st platform), another witness’s car who passed by the building where he said he parked and said she saw a car that looked like his parked backwards there, she then said she saw the 3/4 girls who passed him above her, etc…
He’s had people go out there and walk the routes, he’s done it himself, and he does estimate based on that how it all makes sense. Of course different people walk at different speeds, so it’s not perfect, but it gives a really good idea of how it most likely went down. Or could have. You can think it’s all bullshite, but I’d at least give it a look.
Posted on 10/30/24 at 10:39 am to Epic Cajun
quote:
There are a few people who described someone who was wearing different clothes and looked completely different than Richard Allen
Who? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just unfamiliar with what you’re referring to.
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