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Posted on 10/25/24 at 1:33 pm to POTUS2024
quote:3 feet, you'd literally almost be hitting the person as you drove by.
At one point she said she was 3ft from Allen as she drove by him
Posted on 10/25/24 at 2:26 pm to The Mick
Im 100%positive allen is the guy onthe bridge. He even told the cops what he was wearing before the video came out. And its exactly the same. Guilty af.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 4:39 pm to dallastigers
quote:
Did they not run searches on vehicle back in 2017 and had they also narrowed it down to a Ford Focus Hatchback or just a possibility?
IIRC, they didn't know what he drove until they went to his place of business years later after they found the lost "tip". The LEO said they didn't run any searches for that car.
quote:
Being so long after going over multiple theories and suspects starting back in 2017 before looking at Allen this isn’t that big of deal in reality but may work with a jury member.
I think the point the defense was trying to make is that after the lead investigator was saying something to the effect that he was a good investigator, he stopped thinking any other theory was possible after Allen was arrested. He didn't keep an open mind.
Posted on 10/25/24 at 9:53 pm to bikerack
Today had 1 witness on the stand. The firearms examiner who matched the round found next to the girls to Allen's gun.
Good Twitter thread about today's testimony
Snippet from the thread:
Also...
Good Twitter thread about today's testimony
Snippet from the thread:
quote:
-Oberg said she took Allen's gun and cycled 6 bullets through it and then fired 4 bullets
-She compared the marks from those bullets to the one at the scene and then made the call
quote:
-During cross-examination, defense attorney Brad Rozzi pointed that Oberg only used the fired rounds for comparison
-When asked why, Oberg said the rounds that she cycled through Richard Allen's gun had limited markings and therefore couldn't be used for comparison
quote:
-So essentially she was comparing a fired round to an unfired round
Also...
quote:
ne thing of note is that when we came back from lunch there was only 15 jurors instead of the 16 we're used to seeing.
One of the alternate jurors was missing. Judge Gull later told us that he had a family emergency and was dismissed.
This post was edited on 10/25/24 at 9:54 pm
Posted on 10/26/24 at 7:05 am to bikerack
Looks like Defense got the firearms expert to admit her conclusions are subjective and I would think that will matter to the jury. It's pretty absurd to compare fired and non-fired rounds. Also, the jury asked the expert if different marks can result depending on the force used to cycle the weapon and she said yes. Attorney analyst said she's never seen a case where they compare fired and unfired rounds and claim there's a match.
They briefly talked about him confessing to this over and over but also mentioned at other times he said he didn't do it.
They briefly talked about him confessing to this over and over but also mentioned at other times he said he didn't do it.
This post was edited on 10/26/24 at 7:25 am
Posted on 10/26/24 at 7:51 am to bikerack
quote:
I think the point the defense was trying to make is that after the lead investigator was saying something to the effect that he was a good investigator, he stopped thinking any other theory was possible after Allen was arrested. He didn't keep an open mind.
But it’s not like he was the suspect from day one, it took years to find him. They had searched and searched for evidence and suspects, with almost no leads. I think this idea that no one else was considered is somewhat ridiculous a couple years down the road.
I’m not saying this guy is 100% guilty, but there’s a ton of circumstantial evidence here and as far as I know the police have no other legitimate leads or suspects:
1.) he was there that day AND at the same time. 100% confirmed
2.) matches the photos on the girls phone extremely well. Are there other people on the phone?
3.) has a gun that is the same type as a round found at the scene (I’d really like to know the chances of this being legit, and not a cop dropping a round to pin someone. I’m not saying that happened, just very unusual circumstances)
4.) guy lives down the street and potentially has seen these girls before
5.) possibly admitted to the crime (if this is me and I’m innocent, I’d never admit to a murder???)
Posted on 10/26/24 at 11:02 am to baldona
No idea what happened this morning during their 1/2 day Saturday but...
quote:
Andrea Burkhart ?????????????
@aburkhartlaw
·
24m
I have never seen ANYTHING like what I just saw in the Carroll County Circuit Court. My jaw is still on the floor. I'm seriously questioning whether the State's case will recover.
quote:
Andrea Burkhart ?????????????
@aburkhartlaw
Best I can describe it right now is a laundry list of every shady police tactic while the State's lead investigator crumbled like a stale cookie on the stand.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 11:56 am to baldona
quote:
2.) matches the photos on the girls phone extremely well. Are there other people on the phone?
Has there been testimony to this? I know neither side has asked any witness to identify Allen in court, so far.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 12:09 pm to bikerack
Here's a summary of today.
9 a.m. - Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman returned Saturday morning to testify.
Holeman explained the technique for conducting interviews for "someone with a mental illness," which includes building rapport, presenting evidence, overexaggerating, lying about the evidence and reading their body language.
Holeman said Richard Allen became agitated when Holeman was interviewing him on Oct. 26, 2022. Holeman said he did not plan on arresting Allen that day.
Holeman said at one point, Allen told him, "I'm not going to tell you something I didn't do. I don't care what you do to me. I'm not going to tell you I did something I didn't do."
As an interview technique, Holeman said he lied to Allen about experts saying the voice recorded on Libby's cellphone was his.
Holeman said Allen told him that he suffers from depression and anxiety. However, Holeman said he didn't notice any behavior related to mental illness.
Holeman said Allen denied having a gun that day on the trail, ever knowing Abby Williams and Libby German, or having any involvement in their death.
Holeman said Allen asked him, "What kind of good person would kill two girls?"
Holeman testified Saturday morning that through his training, he noticed some signs of deception from Allen in the Oct. 26, 2022 interview. "Nothing obvious, very subtle," Holeman said, noting Allen was touching his own face, looking down.
During the Oct. 26, 2022 interview, Holeman said he told Allen that they had a report from the lab that the gun they recovered with the search warrant matched the round found at the crime scene. Holeman said Allen denied this but didn't explain more.
Holeman said Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, was there for the interview, and she allegedly told Allen, "All you have to do is ask for a lawyer, and they will let you go."
According to Holeman, Allen responded to his wife, "Don't worry about me."
Holeman said after the interview, he believed they had enough evidence to arrest Allen.
Holeman said Allen told him, "Take all your evidence and just arrest me."
During cross-examination, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin asked Holeman why a part of the video – where Holeman allegedly read Allen his Miranda rights – was missing, which Holeman responded, that there were a lot of "technical difficulties."
Baldwin asked Holeman if he told Allen the death penalty was on the table during that interview, to which Holeman responded, "I did."
Baldwin asked Holeman if in the two weeks between interviews with Allen, from Oct. 13 to Oct. 26, 2022, he sent the cartridge and gun to the lab for testing. Holeman said they did not.
Regarding Holeman's previous statement that at one point during questioning Allen said, "It's over," Baldwin asked Holeman if he recorded that. Holeman said no.
Baldwin asked Holeman if he finds witness Betsy Blair to be credible, to which Holeman said he does. When asked if he knows whose car Blair described to police, Holeman said no.
Baldwin also asked Holeman if he believes one person committed the crime. Holeman responded that he believes that now, but that at some point he thought there may have been more. Baldwin asked Holeman if he believes one person in an hour or so abducted the girls, killed them and undressed them. Holeman responded, "without a doubt."
Baldwin at one point said there was an opportunity for law enforcement to get an approximate height of bridge guy for a cost of $10,000. Holeman responded that they tried to estimate a height and weren't concerned about the money, but the accuracy.
Baldwin asked Holeman if any DNA was found in Allen's home or car connecting to the crime scene. Holeman said he didn't believe so.
When asked by Baldwin if mistakes have been made in the case, Holeman responded, "There's been mistakes made, yes."
Baldwin asked Holeman if he thinks the killer heard people on the bridge from the search party, killed the girls and left. "I believe he may have heard someone," Holeman said. "Before he killed them, after, I don't know."
Holeman said yes when asked if he thought the killer would have been gone by 3:57 p.m.
"You don't know who said, 'down the hill,'" Baldwin said at one point.
Baldwin said to Holeman that Holeman can't rule out if Libby's phone left the scene or not, to which Holeman responded, "I think we can rule that out."
Prosecutor Nick McLeland that if there were any indications Libby's phone moved again after it stopped moving at 2:32 p.m. "Absolutely not," Holeman responded.
McLeland asked Holeman if when Holeman told Allen others saw him on the trail, was that a lie. Holeman said no.
The jury asked if there was a way to get to where the girls were without crossing the bridge. "Not an approved way," Holeman responded.
Next week, the jury will see two videos of Richard Allen being questioned by police on Oct. 13, 2022, and Oct. 26, 2022.
LINK
9 a.m. - Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman returned Saturday morning to testify.
Holeman explained the technique for conducting interviews for "someone with a mental illness," which includes building rapport, presenting evidence, overexaggerating, lying about the evidence and reading their body language.
Holeman said Richard Allen became agitated when Holeman was interviewing him on Oct. 26, 2022. Holeman said he did not plan on arresting Allen that day.
Holeman said at one point, Allen told him, "I'm not going to tell you something I didn't do. I don't care what you do to me. I'm not going to tell you I did something I didn't do."
As an interview technique, Holeman said he lied to Allen about experts saying the voice recorded on Libby's cellphone was his.
Holeman said Allen told him that he suffers from depression and anxiety. However, Holeman said he didn't notice any behavior related to mental illness.
Holeman said Allen denied having a gun that day on the trail, ever knowing Abby Williams and Libby German, or having any involvement in their death.
Holeman said Allen asked him, "What kind of good person would kill two girls?"
Holeman testified Saturday morning that through his training, he noticed some signs of deception from Allen in the Oct. 26, 2022 interview. "Nothing obvious, very subtle," Holeman said, noting Allen was touching his own face, looking down.
During the Oct. 26, 2022 interview, Holeman said he told Allen that they had a report from the lab that the gun they recovered with the search warrant matched the round found at the crime scene. Holeman said Allen denied this but didn't explain more.
Holeman said Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, was there for the interview, and she allegedly told Allen, "All you have to do is ask for a lawyer, and they will let you go."
According to Holeman, Allen responded to his wife, "Don't worry about me."
Holeman said after the interview, he believed they had enough evidence to arrest Allen.
Holeman said Allen told him, "Take all your evidence and just arrest me."
During cross-examination, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin asked Holeman why a part of the video – where Holeman allegedly read Allen his Miranda rights – was missing, which Holeman responded, that there were a lot of "technical difficulties."
Baldwin asked Holeman if he told Allen the death penalty was on the table during that interview, to which Holeman responded, "I did."
Baldwin asked Holeman if in the two weeks between interviews with Allen, from Oct. 13 to Oct. 26, 2022, he sent the cartridge and gun to the lab for testing. Holeman said they did not.
Regarding Holeman's previous statement that at one point during questioning Allen said, "It's over," Baldwin asked Holeman if he recorded that. Holeman said no.
Baldwin asked Holeman if he finds witness Betsy Blair to be credible, to which Holeman said he does. When asked if he knows whose car Blair described to police, Holeman said no.
Baldwin also asked Holeman if he believes one person committed the crime. Holeman responded that he believes that now, but that at some point he thought there may have been more. Baldwin asked Holeman if he believes one person in an hour or so abducted the girls, killed them and undressed them. Holeman responded, "without a doubt."
Baldwin at one point said there was an opportunity for law enforcement to get an approximate height of bridge guy for a cost of $10,000. Holeman responded that they tried to estimate a height and weren't concerned about the money, but the accuracy.
Baldwin asked Holeman if any DNA was found in Allen's home or car connecting to the crime scene. Holeman said he didn't believe so.
When asked by Baldwin if mistakes have been made in the case, Holeman responded, "There's been mistakes made, yes."
Baldwin asked Holeman if he thinks the killer heard people on the bridge from the search party, killed the girls and left. "I believe he may have heard someone," Holeman said. "Before he killed them, after, I don't know."
Holeman said yes when asked if he thought the killer would have been gone by 3:57 p.m.
"You don't know who said, 'down the hill,'" Baldwin said at one point.
Baldwin said to Holeman that Holeman can't rule out if Libby's phone left the scene or not, to which Holeman responded, "I think we can rule that out."
Prosecutor Nick McLeland that if there were any indications Libby's phone moved again after it stopped moving at 2:32 p.m. "Absolutely not," Holeman responded.
McLeland asked Holeman if when Holeman told Allen others saw him on the trail, was that a lie. Holeman said no.
The jury asked if there was a way to get to where the girls were without crossing the bridge. "Not an approved way," Holeman responded.
Next week, the jury will see two videos of Richard Allen being questioned by police on Oct. 13, 2022, and Oct. 26, 2022.
LINK
Posted on 10/26/24 at 1:25 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
2.) matches the photos on the girls phone extremely well. Are there other people on the phone?
Has there been testimony to this? I know neither side has asked any witness to identify Allen in court, so far.
The way the defense team was trying to prevent anyone from speculating what the recorded voice actually said (down the hilll?) it almost seems like they are conceding that point.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 1:55 pm to WestSideTiger
quote:
The way the defense team was trying to prevent anyone from speculating what the recorded voice actually said (down the hilll?) it almost seems like they are conceding that point.
Hmmm....wonder how the jury will interpret that?
Posted on 10/26/24 at 5:41 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
Holeman testified Saturday morning that through his training, he noticed some signs of deception from Allen in the Oct. 26, 2022 interview. "Nothing obvious, very subtle," Holeman said, noting Allen was touching his own face, looking down.
The idea that LE can read body language and pick up on signs of deception is farcical. They are no better than a roll of the dice. I read a paper on this once - they compared LE and random college students. There was no difference in their abilities to pick up on deception but the LE people were much more confident in their assessments, so they were wrong yet confident they were right. Whenever LE tries to say they picked up on this stuff, it should be summarily dismissed and their credibility questioned for thinking they have this ability.
Defense got police to admit to mistakes in the investigation. I think Allen is going to walk unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat, at this point.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 5:46 pm to POTUS2024
quote:
Defense got police to admit to mistakes in the investigation. I think Allen is going to walk unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat, at this point.
That’s the way it looks.
Posted on 10/26/24 at 7:13 pm to Gris Gris
quote:
2.) matches the photos on the girls phone extremely well. Are there other people on the phone? Has there been testimony to this? I know neither side has asked any witness to identify Allen in court, so far.
Testimony from who? I’m not sure but I’m curious? I’m just saying using my own eyes, it looks really close to him. I haven’t seen anyone point out it obviously is not him, just can’t verify it 100%. But if this picture was on the girls phone, and there was no one else on the phones that day and this person looks a lot like Allen that’s incredibly damning to me personally.
Posted on 10/27/24 at 4:09 am to baldona
If you absolutely have nothing to do in your life, Andrea talks for almost 6.5hrs in this video. Lot of good stuff, but it's long.
This post was edited on 10/27/24 at 4:12 am
Posted on 10/27/24 at 10:47 am to baldona
quote:
Testimony from who? I’m not sure but I’m curious? I’m just saying using my own eyes, it looks really close to him. I haven’t seen anyone point out it obviously is not him, just can’t verify it 100%. But if this picture was on the girls phone, and there was no one else on the phones that day and this person looks a lot like Allen that’s incredibly damning to me personally.
I can't see his face well enough to tell whether it's him.
Did he have the long beard at the time of the murders? The sketches didn't show that. Then, there's the one woman who described the man she saw as beautiful. What in the heck was that about?
Posted on 10/27/24 at 11:00 am to POTUS2024
quote:
Defense got police to admit to mistakes in the investigation. I think Allen is going to walk unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat, at this point.
I’ve watched a couple of recaps from each day from people who obviously think he did it, but are reporting the facts and with an open mind. From what I gather, the defense team is better than the prosecution. Which happens a lot in high profile cases and in small counties/parishes. I don’t know anything about this defense team, but I doubt Allen’s family is paying full price if they’re paying at all. Defense attorneys like to take these cases because they’re high profile and will help their firm moving forward. Don’t know this, just speculating.
But they’ve done a good job of planting seeds in the public that likely won’t be allowed in at trial. Like the whole Odenism thing is ridiculous, but they got it out there. Jury will be instructed to only factor in things at trial, but once that’s out there, you really can’t unring that bell.
Also, I’m not sure where this came out—maybe the probable cause hearing. But apparently, Allen was doing fine in prison, found Jesus and got really religious, so much so that he was handing out bibles to other inmates. But he was acting normal. Relatively. Anyhoo, dude realizes he’ll never be with his family again in this life, but can be in Heaven/afterlife. So he needs redemption and feels the only way he can be absolved is to confess. So he confesses to his wife and mother—how many times, not sure—and in those confessions, he was telling them things only the killer would know. Then they told him to shut the frick up. A day or so later, his attorneys show up with the prosecution’s discovery. I don’t know if they went over it all in a day, a couple of days, a week, whatever. But it was right after this that he starts acting all bat-shite crazy, eating paper, spreading his shite all over the place, just acting all looney-tunes. AND, this is when he starts confessing to everybody —family, inmates, guards, anybody who will listen.
BUT, his confessions start containing incorrect things. Said he raped them, said he shot them, said he stabbed them, just changing all the details in order to muddy the waters of the huge frickup he made with the original confessions containing things only the killer would know. And he continued to act bat-shite, probably up until present day.
This was clearly done on the direction of his attorneys. And you would think people could see through it, but if you read the comments of some of these YouTube streams/videos, you can see how that’s not the case. Now, I don’t know how representative these commenters are of the general public, but a great majority of them have bought into either the Odenism thing or believe his confessions containing “wrong” info are proof of his innocence. Some think the investigators/prosecution have done a bad job of proving his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt—and up until now, that certainly seems fair. But most of them straight up think he didn’t do it. Which is absurd. Dude placed himself ON THE BRIDGE at the same time the crime occurred. He also admitted to wearing the EXACT same thing that the Bridge Guy was wearing that day. And he called in the tip line literally the very next day after that photo was put out. He had to be panicking, like “Oh, shite, that’s ME!!!” and had to try to get ahead of it, especially since 3 girls saw him up close, and he had a public facing job at CVS. If one of those girls had gone to CVS one day and saw him and told somebody “that’s the guy we saw on the bridge!!” and he hadn’t already come forward, that would cause all kinds of red flags and they’d zero in on him.
All that said, as 100% sure I am that he did it, the prosecution may not have enough to convict. He got lucky not having left any DNA. But I think it’s gonna wind up coming down to the confessions and what he reveals in those 1st ones. We’ll see. Will be interesting.
Posted on 10/27/24 at 11:13 am to Hot Carl
quote:
So he confesses to his wife and mother—how many times, not sure—and in those confessions, he was telling them things only the killer would know.
Has any of this come in? If not, will it? I don't recall how we know this information. I would assume the wife can't be forced to testify against her husband, but I don't think that applies to mom.
quote:
Dude placed himself ON THE BRIDGE at the same time the crime occurred.
I thought he changed the times he was there a few times, though it was still close in time to when the girls were there. I didn't think the time of the murders has been established other than when they were last known to be alive and some time before they were found.
quote:
He also admitted to wearing the EXACT same thing that the Bridge Guy was wearing that day.
Is this in evidence?
There's seems to be a lot we know, but does the jury know? That's what matters.
Posted on 10/27/24 at 12:09 pm to Hot Carl
quote:
that said, as 100% sure I am that he did it, the prosecution may not have enough to convict. He got lucky not having left any DNA. But I think it’s gonna wind up coming down to the confessions and what he reveals in those 1st ones. We’ll see. Will be interesting.
Lot of good points in this and the content above it - however...
LE admitted mistakes in the investigation.
LE interrogation using Reid technique and the general conduct of the interrogation is greatly flawed and I think the lead investigator has been clowned.
Allen clarified his comments about "it's over" rather well.
Investigator says he saw no evidence of mental illness, but the guy has diagnoses from doctors and the investigator's training is for people in a crisis that need immediate medical attention, not for things like interviews and interrogations.
Witnesses allegedly putting him at the bridge have descriptions that greatly vary from his description.
Allen denied wrongdoing like 25 times but also felt that just being a suspect was going to ruin his life, and I feel confident the defense will use that and his mental illness and the LE interrogation conduct to wipe away the confessions in the eyes of the jury.
I don't think they have any real evidence of him at the scene - no DNA, no fiber, etc.
Firearms evidence is really lacking. Poor testing protocol and it does not even appear they can say with certainty that the same make/caliber of firearm would have been the one ostensibly at the scene, let alone his firearm.
I'm not familiar with the items in his confession that are supposed to be details only the killer would know - the way things are going, it seems likely the defense will be able to crush that as well.
Cellphone data didn't seem to lock up his presence.
He may be guilty, but so far I think more than a couple jurors will have reasonable doubt.
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