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re: Dan Carlin Hardcore History Addendum - History on Fire

Posted on 6/30/19 at 1:27 am to
Posted by biglego
San Francisco
Member since Nov 2007
85505 posts
Posted on 6/30/19 at 1:27 am to
I’m not disagreeing with you, but:
quote:

think it is aggravating that so many conservatives push the simplistic notion that National Socialism was fundamentally left wing

It’s more often that I hear liberals pushing the simplistic notion that Nazis were strictly right wing. Would be best if everyone could just acknowledge the Nazis don’t even fit on the spectrum.

TBH, I’ve always found it exhausting to even try to keep track of all the -isms... Leninism, Maoism, Stalinism, Nazism, communism, fascism, socialism, mercantilism, corporatism, etc

When in doubt, less government and more economic freedom is better.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17230 posts
Posted on 6/30/19 at 2:16 am to
quote:

I agree with everything else you said, though I think Hitler was more anti-socialist than anti-capitalist.


I would loosely agree. Anti-Marxism was a fundamental, immutable characteristic of Nazism as it was seen as an existential enemy to the concept of the nation-state. In this respect, Nazism and Western Civilization in general were in agreement. The anti-capitalist sentiments hinged on anti-Semitism (in many respects), anti-materialism (philosophically), and a belief that capitalist states were plutocratic and exploitative of the working classes. You can see some overlapping themes at work. Capitalism was also viewed to be an empowerment of international interests and a force that externally influenced the national affairs of sovereign states (in this case, Germany obviously). There were more traditional geopolitical forces and grievances at work in this time period that clearly created tremendous tension and animus between National Socialist Germany and the Western states that were perhaps less ideologically tinged than the differences with the Communist USSR (Hitler was an Anglophile, for example, and exulted the British Empire privately as racial and spiritual kin to the Germans; natural allies if only the "Jewish international financiers" could be subdued). But the Nazis absolutely had great reservations and ideological contempt for capitalist forces and dogmatic economic theories on economic liberty above the collective interests of the national body, interests determined by the political leadership i.e. the state. Thus there is very little comparison with political factions on the economic right in liberal democracies who champion dogmatic ideas on economic liberty and restrictions on state authority. It should be recognized that the Communists viewed the Fascists, Nazis, and other Western powers as similar enemies of socialist revolutionary aims.

The traditional right wing in Germany allied with the Nazis in 1933, with great reservation, because while they viewed them as a much better alternative to the Communists, they had reservations themselves as to the economic and social nature of the movement. Hitler and his party were very ambiguous in a number of ways, sometimes contradictory even, making it hard to pin down their ideological positions. What's essential to understand is that Hitler did not derive his worldview from any philosophical text regarding economic theories or ideas on human liberty. All political ideology had to be subservient to the fundamental worldview that the state existed primarily to serve for the preservation of a unique ethnic/racial civilization. Any theoretical debates on internal policy were secondary and must exist within the confines of this paradigm.
This post was edited on 6/30/19 at 2:44 am
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17230 posts
Posted on 6/30/19 at 3:07 am to
quote:

It’s more often that I hear liberals pushing the simplistic notion that Nazis were strictly right wing.


It's prevalent in both directions. I see it from prominent conservatives on social media all the time and it's a very popular argument on this site. It's viewed as effective rhetorically, and it probably is to a large degree, but it's historically inaccurate and obtuse to claim the Nazis as simply left wing. Of course conservatives do this in an earnest and valid attempt to counter the false claims that their philosophy is at all similar to Nazism on account of the relative political term "right."

It's more maliciously and dangerously applied by the left in that their more extreme factions conflate Nazis with American conservatives, which is exactly what the Communists did. An indication about the political leanings of the people who do it today as well, IMO.
Posted by Lsupimp
Ersatz Amerika-97.6% phony & fake
Member since Nov 2003
86484 posts
Posted on 6/30/19 at 9:00 am to
People can not wrap their heads around the Nazis simultaneously being Nationalist, Socialist, Fascist, Racist, Genocidal, Anti-globalist, Central- planning, weirdly Nanny State,etc. A Brownshirt who wants guaranteed jobs for all “ good Germans”, wants to confiscate all your inherited wealth, seize unfavored or Jewish companies, hated International Capitalism and yet were genocidal Racist Nationalists who were hell bent on destroying Soviet Communism and yet aligned with lifelong Socialist “ intellectual “ Benito Mussolini.

That’s just kind of the beginning of unraveling Nazism.

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