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Started By
Message
re: Court rules against Oregon bakers in wedding-cake case
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:06 am to Will Cover
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:06 am to Will Cover
We bake cakes, not gaykes.
0
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:14 am to Will Cover
The marketplace has to be a "neutral zone" wherein everyone has the opportunity to buy and sell products and services. Anyone who has a product or service for sale must offer it to everyone equally.
Sellers already have the solid right to refuse to accommodate anyone for any reason. This doesn't mean they can discriminate against groups or communities of people, especially protected classes.
As for religious freedom, a person's religious rights stop where another person's civil liberties begin. The marketplace is just such a place where those two classes of rights meet. It's a boundary that helps define these Constitutionally protected rights.
Sellers already have the solid right to refuse to accommodate anyone for any reason. This doesn't mean they can discriminate against groups or communities of people, especially protected classes.
As for religious freedom, a person's religious rights stop where another person's civil liberties begin. The marketplace is just such a place where those two classes of rights meet. It's a boundary that helps define these Constitutionally protected rights.
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 11:15 am
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:23 am to Kentucker
quote:
As for religious freedom, a person's religious rights stop where another person's civil liberties begin
What civil liberty is being violated by refusing to participate in a specific type of event?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:26 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
What civil liberty is being violated by refusing to participate in a specific type of event?
The baker is not participating in an event. He is offering cakes for sale. The gay couple decided to buy one.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:28 am to Kentucker
quote:
The baker is not participating in an event. He is offering cakes for sale. The gay couple decided to buy one.
They are wanting them to design their wedding cake. They aren't walking in just wanting a chocolate cake off the street. The baker is refusing to design a cake for the event, not refusing to sell a cake to a gay person. Pretty sure this person had bought stuff from them before IIRC (That may have been the colorado case though).
Regardless, we'll eventually get a supreme court ruling on these type of incidents and see where things go.
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 11:31 am
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:30 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
You are just making things even more complicated with all of your different rules.
Not making rules.
The baker's have the right to not put statements they don't agree with on a cake. They have the right to refuse to deliver and set up the cake at a particular event. They do not have the right to refuse to bake a cake for someone because of their beliefs. Again though, they can refuse to deliver and serve it somewhere because of their beliefs. That's the point when the civil Rights of the baker's would be violated.
Yes it would be stupid to only provide some of the typical services, and it would be stupid for the customer to use them as their bakery... doesn't change things just because it's stupid though.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:32 am to GoCrazyAuburn
The baker sells custom designed cakes for sale. The couple decided to buy one from him. He refused because they're gay. He didn't treat them equally as the law in Colorado requires.
Their civil liberties trump the baker's religious freedom to discriminate.
Their civil liberties trump the baker's religious freedom to discriminate.
This post was edited on 12/29/17 at 11:33 am
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:34 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
They are wanting them to design their wedding cake. They aren't walking in just wanting a chocolate cake off the street. The baker is refusing to design a cake for the event, not refusing to sell a cake to a gay person. Pretty sure this person had bought stuff from them before IIRC (That may have been the colorado case though).
Were they asked to make a wedding cake? Or were they asked to put something gay on the cake? A cake is a cake. Whether it's served at gay wedding or a regular wedding... The cake itself doesn't change. Now if they want the cake to depict gay things....that is what they should be able to refuse.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:35 am to Steadyhands
quote:
The baker's have the right to not put statements they don't agree with on a cake. They have the right to refuse to deliver and set up the cake at a particular event. They do not have the right to refuse to bake a cake for someone because of their beliefs. Again though, they can refuse to deliver and serve it somewhere because of their beliefs. That's the point when the civil Rights of the baker's would be violated.
You are drawing an arbitrary line as to where their work and services can be refused. They can't refuse to bake the cake, but they can refuse to deliver it? I mean are we really drawing the line there? That is just silly.
quote:
Yes it would be stupid to only provide some of the typical services, and it would be stupid for the customer to use them as their bakery... doesn't change things just because it's stupid though.
If you agree it is stupid, it probably should change your opinion of it.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:35 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Regardless, we'll eventually get a supreme court ruling on these type of incidents and see where things go.
I'm guessing that you're a conservative. How do you want the SC to rule on this issue? Do you see it as a states' rights matter?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:36 am to Steadyhands
quote:
Were they asked to make a wedding cake? Or were they asked to put something gay on the cake? A cake is a cake. Whether it's served at gay wedding or a regular wedding... The cake itself doesn't change. Now if they want the cake to depict gay things....that is what they should be able to refuse.
They met with the owner about them making them a wedding cake. So yes, they were asked to make a wedding cake.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:38 am to Steadyhands
quote:
Now if they want the cake to depict gay things....that is what they should be able to refuse
You'd have to define "gay things." This baker has already shown that he'll bake "vagina cakes" but he objects to put wording and perhaps figurines on a cake for two lesbians' wedding?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:39 am to Kentucker
quote:
I'm guessing that you're a conservative.
I'm not.
quote:
How do you want the SC to rule on this issue? Do you see it as a states' rights matter?
Not a state's right issue. It is a freedom of speech/association issue more than anything else with sprinkling of freedom of religion.
I think the SC should rule in favor of the bakers in that they should not be forced to provide a service for an event they are not comfortable with. That is a very big difference than refusing service to an individual.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:40 am to Will Cover
quote:
Oregon bakery owners who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding
quote:
Portland bakery
quote:
owners of the since-closed Gresham bakery
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:44 am to Steadyhands
quote:
The baker's have the right to not put statements they don't agree with on a cake
Only if those statements offend a community's sensibilities, not if they are against the baker's religious beliefs.
quote:
They have the right to refuse to deliver and set up the cake at a particular event.
No, they don't if they provide this as a service available to all.
quote:
That's the point when the civil Rights of the baker's would be violated.
No. This is where the baker's religious rights meet the couple's civil rights. Civil rights trump religious rights.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:45 am to Kentucker
quote:
You'd have to define "gay things." This baker has already shown that he'll bake "vagina cakes" but he objects to put wording and perhaps figurines on a cake for two lesbians' wedding?
I see this no differently for like a catering company. If someone wants a catering company to provide food for their event, they should be able to refuse to provide food for that type of event if they disagree with it. Drawing the line and saying that they have to provide the food, but don't have to deliver it to the location is just a silly arbitrary line IMO.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:49 am to Kentucker
So in your opinion, the baker has no rights? At what point can they refuse to provide their services?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:50 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Not a state's right issue. It is a freedom of speech/association issue more than anything else with sprinkling of freedom of religion.
I agree but with a different perspective. I see it as a basic civil rights issue for the gay couple.
quote:
I think the SC should rule in favor of the bakers in that they should not be forced to provide a service for an event they are not comfortable with.
How can they rule in favor of the baker without opening the Pandora's Box of religious discrimination and making it a common excuse to exclude anyone or any group from enjoying the services and products that are offered in the marketplace?
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:52 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
I see this no differently for like a catering company.
I agree. If the baker offers other services with the cake, then he must provide them to all equally.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:54 am to Will Cover
If I were the bakers and felt this strongly about the issue, I would stop making wedding cakes and just make other kinds of baked goods.
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