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re: Cavalry or Calvary

Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:26 pm to
Posted by TigerstuckinMS
Member since Nov 2005
33687 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:26 pm to
quote:

Not anything.


I knew that was coming as soon as I clicked "submit".

Also, Wikipedia has this to say on the matter.

quote:

The boat is mentioned in the song "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" by The Band. The word 'The', which indicates a reference to the steamboat, rather than the general, is unclear on the album version of the song, but is audible in the live performance on Before The Flood and more so in The Last Waltz.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_(steamboat)

ETA: Wikipedia also has this to say on the matter.
quote:

In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down
This post was edited on 9/4/19 at 10:39 pm
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:27 pm to
It’s there. It Might be in both. But it’s definitely in the Band’s version. They wrote the damn song
Posted by tgrbaitn08
Member since Dec 2007
148031 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:29 pm to
quote:


I knew that was coming as soon as I clicked "submit".


No you didn’t
Posted by genro
Member since Nov 2011
62706 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:31 pm to
But it's not though. I guess it's time to get your mind blown. Go listen to the goddamn song. It's the first stanza of the second verse, about 1:45 in.
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
158988 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:32 pm to
quote:

I don’t know if I’d call it “clearly”.
don't be Chris

I was wrong once myself, but I admitted it
quote:

when she originally did it she didn’t know “the Robert E Lee” was a vessel, which would make sense. Same with “so much cavalry.”
I trust Joan Baez completely

/sarc off

This song was once very popular. I'm sure Baez had heard it.
Posted by genro
Member since Nov 2011
62706 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:34 pm to
I hear the live versions as an 'uh'. There goes a-Robert E Lee.

I don't agree with that description. I just listened to make sure I'm not crazy

The album version very clearly has nothing. Not even an rrr leading in the R. A very clear pause. There goes... Robert E Lee
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:43 pm to
I just listened to both versions.

Maybe it’s hearing what you want to hear. And maybe because i’ve heard interviews before with them talking about it and the knowledge of history but I think the reasoning was because Lee wouldn’t have been in the area they were talking about at that time.

But i’m Telling you I can hear a slight “the” in the bands version. Possibly both. But definitely not more of a “the” in Baez’s version than the band’s
Posted by tigercross
Member since Feb 2008
5075 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:43 pm to
quote:

Cavalry comes from cavalier, which comes from the French Chevalier, which comes from the French Cheval, for horse. People are dumb


Anyone with a modicum of grounding in the classics knows that cavalry is derived from the Latin word “caballus”.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:48 pm to
quote:

Anyone with a modicum of grounding in the classics knows that cavalry is derived from the Latin word “caballus”.


Which is where the French “cheval” came from. French changed the “c” to a “ch”. It wasn’t in Old English but entered via the Norman conquest and the heavy influence of French upon English in that period, but English eventually dropped the “ch” and reverted back to the original “c” sound, but kept the “v”.

Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
158988 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:53 pm to
quote:

quote:

You motherfrickers will argue about anything
Not anything
Anything
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 10:55 pm to
quote:

General George Stoneman’s Union Cavalry rip up the rails of the Richmond and Danville Railroad, a main Confederate supply route, to prevent reinforcements reaching Robert E. Lee’s Army during the Siege of Petersburg. Robert E. Lee surrendered shortly after on April 9 at the Appomattox, and on May 10th Davis was captured by the Union Army and Richmond fell.

The Robert E. Lee mentioned in the second verse of the song is a steamboat named after the general that was launched on the Mississippi river in 1866

I’m no chris

This post was edited on 9/4/19 at 10:56 pm
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
158988 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:09 pm to
quote:

I’m no chris
That remains in dispute

LINK
quote:

 In his 1993 autobiography, This Wheel's on Fire, Helm wrote, "Robbie and I worked on 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' up in Woodstock. I remember taking him to the library so he could research the history and geography of the era and make General Robert E. Lee come out with all due respect.
So how is it about the riverboat?

Posted by genro
Member since Nov 2011
62706 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:14 pm to
I'm done with this. Time to take a load off, Annie
Posted by JETigER
LSU 2011 National Champions
Member since Dec 2003
7081 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:21 pm to
(no message)
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:22 pm to
quote:

So how is it about the riverboat?


quote:

The Robert E. Lee mentioned in the second verse of the song is a steamboat named after the general that was launched on the Mississippi river in 1866

This post was edited on 9/4/19 at 11:29 pm
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
158988 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:30 pm to
quote:

The Robert E. Lee mentioned in the second verse of the song is a steamboat named after the general that was launched on the Mississippi river in 1866
yes I know, you found a blog supporting your position

I'm skedaddling from this thread too.

I mean, I'm the skedaddling.
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/4/19 at 11:38 pm to
quote:

Robert E. Lee spent his entire military career as commanding General of the Army of Northern Virginia, and was never in Tennessee during the entire civil war. Research shows that this verse must certainly refer to the Mississippi steamboat "Robert E. Lee", which operated mainly between Natchez, Missouri, and New Orleans. This operational route did not include that stretch of the Mississippi River which borders western Tennessee, but the "Robert E. Lee" was known to venture as far north as St. Louis when revenue fell short on the Natchez-New Orleans run. While the previous two references indicate Virgil living along the R&D line in April 1865, there is no historical time reference by which to place the "Robert E. Lee" on the western Tennessee border where Ole' Miss flows. In 1870, the "Robert E. Lee" raced the "Natchez" (another steamboat) from New Orleans to St. Louis. (The "Robert E. Lee" won the contest.) This race would have taken the Robert E. Lee along the Mississippi on the western border of Tennessee, where Virgil's wife might have seen the steamboat. Virgil tells the story of his involvement in the Civil War in the first two references, and then quips "back with my wife in Tennessee", obviously following the events described earlier in the song. The logical conclusion is that Virgil's wife saw the "Robert E. Lee" sometime between April 1865 and 1870.



I used to think it was “Robert E Lee” too...but Lee wasn’t in Tennessee

Now to know about Stoneman’s cavalry, the Danville train, and the other historical nuances in the song would require that they were versed in civil war history. And if they were, they’d know that Lee wasn’t in Tennessee, especially not in that time period. But...THE Robert E Lee was.

Another supporting factor, she’s rushing to get Virgil so he can see something...but not up close, it had to be far off. Something big. Even if Lee was in Tennessee at that time, she wouldn’t be able to pick him out of cavalry column from far away.

But she Would know that The Robert E Lee was due by them soon, and it was something that could be seen from afar.

So logic dictates that if they were correct on all the rest, they wouldn’t make such a glaring mistake.
This post was edited on 9/4/19 at 11:57 pm
Posted by fr33manator
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2010
135030 posts
Posted on 9/5/19 at 12:15 am to




History of English podcast-knight life

First 10 minutes lays it out fairly well.

I was partially wrong though on the relisten. Caballus entered French and was changed and then went into English with the CH, but there was a parallel development in Italian that kept the hard C but replaced the B with a V, and that trickled into English as well as cavalier.

For a while Chevalier and Cavalier were both present in Early English, with chevalier giving us chivalry, but eventually chevalier was dropped in favor of “Knight” (which was then pronounced closer to Monty Python’s Keh nig it)


And cavalier is cognate with Cavalry.

Mea culpa
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