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Being PEC'd
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:31 pm
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:31 pm
Anyone know the legal information relating to PECs? Technically they expire after 72 hours but it's rare for psych-hospitals to release them after that window. Often they keep the patient as long as the insurance pays. How is that allowed when patients sign a paper that expires after three days? Also, say a patient refuses meds, doesn't participate in groups, or refuses to have blood work drawn. Are they really helping "stabilize" if the patient is there again their will and not utilizing resources? How do hospitals justify thousands of dollars a day in reimbursement when the patient isn't engaging in activities?
11
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:36 pm to JabarkusRussell
You rang?
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:37 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
Anyone know the legal information relating to PECs? Technically they expire after 72 hours but it's rare for psych-hospitals to release them after that window. Often they keep the patient as long as the insurance pays. How is that allowed when patients sign a paper that expires after three days? Also, say a patient refuses meds, doesn't participate in groups, or refuses to have blood work drawn. Are they really helping "stabilize" if the patient is there again their will and not utilizing resources? How do hospitals justify thousands of dollars a day in reimbursement when the patient isn't engaging in activities?
They have 72 hours to be held under PEC, if there is necessary evaluation past the PEC it turns into the coroners (CEC) hold I believe lasting up to 15 additional days. at least In Louisiana I believe. PEC/CEC is involuntary, patient signature is irrelevant.
These last until physician discharge or expiration of CEC.
This post was edited on 8/21/18 at 10:40 pm
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:37 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
psych-hospitals
quote:
patients sign a paper that expires after three days?
Obviously, the person was not in the mental state necessary to sign a contract. I think we will need to observe him some more
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:37 pm to JabarkusRussell
Ask for a lawyer baw. They’ll let you out.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:38 pm to JabarkusRussell
I think the PEC lasts 72 hours but then a CEC can be obtained which I believe is good for 13 days? Not 100% sure. It’s been a while since I’ve worked in psych
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:39 pm to AMS
Can't patients just sign a "discharged against medical advice" if they don't agree that they need to be kept longer? What if on the flip side, the patient takes their meds, goes to group, is compliant, and doesn't isolate? How does the doctor justify keeping them beyond the 72 hours? I'm talking for simple SI/thoughts not an actual attempt or plan.
This post was edited on 8/21/18 at 10:41 pm
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:40 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
Can't patients just sign a "discharged against medical advice" if they don't agree that they need to be kept longer? What if on the flip side, the patient takes their meds, goes to group, is compliant, and doesn't isolate? How does the doctor justify keeping them beyond the 72 hours?
PEC is for the grossly disabled, dangers to self or others. There is no signing out AMA from a PEC/CEC lol.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:41 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
but it's rare for psych-hospitals to release them after that window.
Not true. A PEC is good for three days. Within those three days the hospital will likely get a CEC. Then the hospital has some time to file for a judicial commitment. I forget how long. Maybe two weeks. The hearing must be within a certain time as well. If the judge finds that the patient is a danger to himself or others, that they are not taking meds, and that meds would help their condition, the court can commit for up to 6 months.
This post was edited on 8/21/18 at 10:43 pm
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:43 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Not true. A PEC is good for three days. Within those three days the hospital will likely get a CEC. Then the hospital has some time to file for a judicial commitment. I forget how long. Maybe three weeks. The hearing must be within a certain time as well. If the judge finds that the patient is a danger to himself or others, that they are not taking less, and that meds would help their condition, the court can commit for up to 6 months.
I think he was saying its rare for a CEC to be granted. I believe most PECs are discharged within the 72 hours, a smaller portion gets CEC. At least my interpretation of his comment,
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:43 pm to JabarkusRussell
I can tell you one thing, I have no clue about any of this,
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:44 pm to AMS
quote:
I think he was saying its rare for a CEC to be granted. I believe most PECs are discharged within the 72 hours, a smaller portion gets CEC. At least my interpretation of his comment,
Ah. If I misunderstood my bad.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:45 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Ah. If I misunderstood my bad.
I may have misunderstood, but OP was unaware of a CEC so who knows
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:45 pm to AMS
quote:
They have 72 hours to be held under PEC, if there is necessary evaluation past the PEC it turns into the coroners (CEC) hold I believe lasting up to 15 additional days. at least In Louisiana I believe. PEC/CEC is involuntary, patient signature is irrelevant.
These last until physician discharge or expiration of CEC.
Everything here is 100% correct except the CEC 15 day clock starts when the PEC is signed. Dr. can release the patient earlier.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:46 pm to JabarkusRussell
Any physician that has a good reason to PEC a patient can do so. It is usually due to a suicidal patient, but can be done for any unstable psychiatric reasons. but usually the physician's determined that the patient cannot make the correct decision for themselves. A patient's ability to pay is not considered in a
PEC.
PEC.
This post was edited on 8/21/18 at 10:50 pm
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:47 pm to Beessnax
quote:
Everything here is 100% correct except the CEC 15 day clock starts when the PEC is signed. Dr. can release the patient earlier.
thanks for the correction. 15 total days, not additional.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:49 pm to BBONDS25
I had a patient who refused to sign documentation consenting to being hospitalized. The doctor told her that he likes all of his patients to be there voluntarily and failure to sign could keep them up to 15 days. Is that true or was it just a strong arm scare tactic?
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:50 pm to VanCleef
[quote]Any physician has a good reason to PEC a patient. It is usually due to a suicidal patient, but can be done for any unstable psychiatric reasons. but usually the physician's determined that the patient cannot make the correct decision for themselves. A patient's ability to pay is not considered in a
PEC.
[/quote]
They usually try to avoid a PEC if at all possible. Its some extra paperwork and liability. Plus people are almost universally pissed that they can't have their stuff or go home.
PEC.
[/quote]
They usually try to avoid a PEC if at all possible. Its some extra paperwork and liability. Plus people are almost universally pissed that they can't have their stuff or go home.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:54 pm to AMS
my perspective of PEC's is in the emergent setting. I also corrected a misnomer in my original post.
Posted on 8/21/18 at 10:59 pm to JabarkusRussell
quote:
. Is that true or was it just a strong arm scare tactic
It's true. If the patient dosent sign a formal voluntary admission then the Dr has to PEC if indicated. That forces the CEC to possibly come into play,which can be 15 days.
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