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American Pilots WWII vs Modern
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:23 am
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:23 am
If our pilots from WWII were put up against our modern day pilots, all planes equal, would they be able to outfly them and shoot them down?
I ask thinking about the dogfighting tactics of the era and the last time Americans engaged in air-to-air combat. They had much more experience in air-to-air combat during WWII but have the advancements in modern understanding/training of air combat triumph over the WWII dog fighting skills.
I ask thinking about the dogfighting tactics of the era and the last time Americans engaged in air-to-air combat. They had much more experience in air-to-air combat during WWII but have the advancements in modern understanding/training of air combat triumph over the WWII dog fighting skills.
This post was edited on 10/27/19 at 11:26 am
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Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:24 am to KirkLazarus
Would have crashed the 737 MAX too imo
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:36 am to KirkLazarus
Interesting premise. Modern pilots are better educated. All have college degrees, usually in a technical field, and have years of training. WWII pilots were in their late teens or early twenties, with a few months training behind them. OTOH there was a pool of millions to draw from, meaning the best natural pilots were selected, which doesnt necessarily happen now. Chuck Yeager in 2019, growing up in WV without a college degree, is driving a truck or working construction.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:38 am to Jim Rockford
Dad was 19 and was piloting the USMC version of the B-24 in WW2.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:40 am to KirkLazarus
quote:
If our pilots from WWII were put up against our modern day pilots, all planes equal, would they be able to outfly them
Which planes? High tech or manual?
Posted on 10/27/19 at 11:42 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
Chuck Yeager in 2019, growing up in WV without a college degree, is driving a truck or working construction.
Perhaps since computers are revolutionizing everything else somebody will figure out a way to scrape off the barnacles of overcertification so we can get people into the end positions they are naturally gifted to do.
lousy sentence but you know what I mean
Posted on 10/27/19 at 12:03 pm to KirkLazarus
Great post. This one requires a little thought.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 12:18 pm to KirkLazarus
Impossible question.
You say “all planes equal”, so are they flying F-22s or P-51s? Modern pilots are much better trained than their WW2 counterparts, so that’s a huge advantage.
Then there’s the ranges involved: WW2 dogfights typically took place at a range of less than 200 yards. Modern dogfighting, to the extent it still exists, co es in two varieties: WVR (within visual range) and BVR (beyond visual range). WVR typically encompasses a range of up to 2000 yards, but this only occurs if you’ve seriously fricked up the BVR tactical situation and have now “merged” into WVR.
Even in WVR combat situations you probably aren’t using your main gun unless it’s a hopelessly outclassed opponent and you just want to save money. In reality must modern aircraft are far too maneuverable to make gunfire effective.
You say “all planes equal”, so are they flying F-22s or P-51s? Modern pilots are much better trained than their WW2 counterparts, so that’s a huge advantage.
Then there’s the ranges involved: WW2 dogfights typically took place at a range of less than 200 yards. Modern dogfighting, to the extent it still exists, co es in two varieties: WVR (within visual range) and BVR (beyond visual range). WVR typically encompasses a range of up to 2000 yards, but this only occurs if you’ve seriously fricked up the BVR tactical situation and have now “merged” into WVR.
Even in WVR combat situations you probably aren’t using your main gun unless it’s a hopelessly outclassed opponent and you just want to save money. In reality must modern aircraft are far too maneuverable to make gunfire effective.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 12:21 pm to KirkLazarus
I’m no pilot, but wouldn’t the difference in velocity and maneuverability make a difference in selecting a certain skill set?
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:04 pm to SD Tider
quote:
Impossible question.
quote:
F-22s or P-51s
Thats exactly why I ask. For the sake of this argument I'm suggesting Within Visual Range. How long has it been since we had air to air combat that was competitive against the United States? Gulf War? Vietnam?
I would think the best choice for determining this would be a plane actually used in dog fights, so first choice would be P-51. The modern pilots would have significantly better training but no actual combat experience to fall back on and as a previous poster mentioned, the pool of pilots available with a draft.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:33 pm to KirkLazarus
quote:
I would think the best choice for determining this would be a plane actually used in dog fights, so first choice would be P-51. The modern pilots would have significantly better training but no actual combat experience to fall back on and as a previous poster mentioned, the pool of pilots available with a draft.
So we’re assuming both pilots have been trained on the P-51, but the modern pilot is getting the same level of training and analysis that he would today. The WW2 pilot is battle-hardened with significant combat experience over the F-22 pilot who’s only done targeted strikes and air superiority missions over Iraq and Syria.
In that case I still think the superior training of the average modern pilot wins out over the average WW2 pilot, although the top tier WW2 pilots probably beat out the top tier modern pilots. The reason I say this is that after Pearl Harbor American airmen received 27 weeks of training and only 200 hours of flight time prior to being certified. Modern pilots receive a minimum of 72 weeks of training, and sometimes twice that depending on branch/aircraft, etc. Then if you get selected to the elite F-22 pilot program you can expect several more months of training.
I think the superior training is a huge factor in the long run. The reality for US pilots (and really all pilots) in WW2 was being rushed to combat theatres with a lack of training due to the desperate need for pilots, and they paid a heavy price for it. Surviving long term in those conditions was insanely impressive and a true testament to ability, skill, courage, and probably a good deal of luck.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:39 pm to SD Tider
quote:
In that case I still think the superior training of the average modern pilot wins out over the average WW2 pilot, although the top tier WW2 pilots probably beat out the top tier modern pilots. The reason I say this is that after Pearl Harbor American airmen received 27 weeks of training and only 200 hours of flight time prior to being certified. Modern pilots receive a minimum of 72 weeks of training, and sometimes twice that depending on branch/aircraft, etc. Then if you get selected to the elite F-22 pilot program you can expect several more months of training.
That was my next question, would top tier pilots of WWII outlast modern top pilots.
I didn't know that about the time spent preparing for WWII vs modern pilots. Thanks for the info.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:46 pm to SD Tider
quote:
I think the superior training is a huge factor in the long run. The reality for US pilots (and really all pilots) in WW2 was being rushed to combat theatres with a lack of training due to the desperate need for pilots, and they paid a heavy price for it. Surviving long term in those conditions was insanely impressive and a true testament to ability, skill, courage, and probably a good deal of luck.
Theres an argument that great pilots are born not made. Yeager's eyesight was reportedly so good that he could see his bullets in flight. Something like only 5% of fighter pilots of any country ever shot down a plane, and most of the rest never fired their guns in anger. They were just flying around taking up space and serving as prey.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:55 pm to KirkLazarus
Wrong. The modern US fighter pilot receives SO much more training in every aspect of flying- and yes, that includes dogfighting.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 1:58 pm to KirkLazarus
Interesting premise. Modern pilots as said above have a lot more training, although less on dog fights and close range fighting. It depends on what they are flying. If they fly modern planes then the modern pilots win. If they’re flying Mustangs and doing dog fights I’d say WW2 pilots win.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 2:02 pm to DavidTheGnome
Chuck Yeager Twitter
Chuck Yeager is on twitter
Chuck Yeager is on twitter
quote:
Q: How is your vision nowadays compared to the 20/10 or so that I hear it was decades ago? A: It was 20/7. It depends on what I'm looking for - if bandits, bogeys, targets, whatever I'm huntin' - it's still very good.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 2:06 pm to KirkLazarus
WWROD
Posted on 10/27/19 at 2:33 pm to KirkLazarus
The aviator of WW2 was a different breed. They took these machines and pushed them to the limit and went head on with dogfighting.
Today’s pilots are trained for dogfighting but it’s more of less of a last resort type of thing. You try to take out your target before he sees you. I think our modern pilots could still outduel our WW2 guys though.
Today’s pilots are trained for dogfighting but it’s more of less of a last resort type of thing. You try to take out your target before he sees you. I think our modern pilots could still outduel our WW2 guys though.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 2:55 pm to Jim Rockford
A 20-something colonel in the USAAF was not unusual in WW2.
Posted on 10/27/19 at 2:58 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Interesting premise. Modern pilots are better educated. All have college degrees, usually in a technical field, and have years of training. WWII pilots were in their late teens or early twenties, with a few months training behind them. OTOH there was a pool of millions to draw from, meaning the best natural pilots were selected, which doesnt necessarily happen now. Chuck Yeager in 2019, growing up in WV without a college degree, is driving a truck or working construction.
The jets we use today are capable of so much more than the planes of the 1940’s. You don’t need the numbers like you did then. So, you can pick from a more selective pool. Also, we have never had to engage in a modern war of air superiority against another formidable air force. WWII was the last time.
Modern training alone make today’s pilots better, but it’s still hard to beat extensive combat experience. It’s kind of like Army officers who graduated out of West Point trying to lead a squad of draftees who have been through the shite. At what point does experience matter more than education?
This post was edited on 10/27/19 at 3:06 pm
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