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re: Addison Plane Crash Video - Can any OT aviation experts explain it
Posted on 7/17/19 at 8:24 am to Bedhog
Posted on 7/17/19 at 8:24 am to Bedhog
One possibility raised by Tom Clements, who is a well known King Air instructor.
Another experienced King Air pilot on Beechtalk:
quote:
Throttle Lever Migration refers to the tendency of the PT6 Power levers to move back toward Idle due to a spring in the linkage that is designed to take the engine to the "safe" position -- no over-torque or over-temp -- if the linkage fails. If the left and right Power lever friction knobs are not snugged up enough, both levers almost always move aft from a well-forward position when no hand is holding them. However, in virtually all cases the left comes back further than the right. Why? Because the left cable is shorter than the right and hence normally has less "sticktion." Why shorter? (1) Because the Power Levers are on the left side of the cockpit centerline; (2) Because the engine end of the cables connect to the right side of both engines.
Autofeather has to know whether a power loss is an intentional one -- a mere reduction in power due to the Power Lever being retarded -- or a true "failure," where power is lost even though the Power lever is well-advanced. So switches in the power quadrant turn the system off whenever a Power lever is retarded...as happens in these migration cases.
The typical flight path in these cases is --- @&%! -- is exactly what we see here...problem occuring just about the time the pilot's hand would leave the power levers to reach for the landing gear handle, and a left turn to the crash site. If the comment about the left prop being feathered is correct -- and I will be surprised if it is -- it contradicts my speculation.
I cannot easily conceive of any reason for a 350 to crash on takeoff following an engine failure, except for this horrid mistake of mis-set friction knobs. A 350 on one engine, at max weight, with a feathered prop, outperforms most singles by a bunch!
RIP, people. Damn! Damn! Damn!
Another experienced King Air pilot on Beechtalk:
quote:
I am gonna have to agree that it does look like it [throttle migration]. Something prevented him from putting the gear up. What was it? A failed engine with no other issues to wrestle with or diagnose, the PIC should still get the gear. Gear is King Air 101. Positive rate, gear up. They had a positive rate (intially). Gear should have gone up.
From the "let me put the gear up" brain pattern, to the VMC roll, something happened.
What was it ?
I am giving the multi-jet typed PIC the assumption that he reached for the gear handle.
But his hand never arrived, possibly placing both hands on the control wheel/yoke to control the airplane.
Throttle migrated to Power to Idle, the RPM should have remained at Takeoff RPM (1700).
No red flashers, oil pressure, temps, all green arcs. Fuel flow at a reduced level but who looks at FF to diagnose an engine failure. It will not autofeather, the engine is still online, but at idle, below 88% N1 and below 17% torque (it is at idle).
See image of Fusion. See engine gauges. In other words, it had the appearance and behavior of an engine failure but it was not a failure. They probably hunted for clues and, well, it was not an engine failure.
2
Posted on 7/17/19 at 8:44 am to just1dawg
LINK
I was suspecting throttle roll back due to weak friction locks in the first thread on this crash. This plane had two pilots though. They should have been able to identify that. But takeoff is pretty much the busiest time in a cockpit as it is and add in a suspected power loss and you can get task saturated and miss a lot of shite.
I was suspecting throttle roll back due to weak friction locks in the first thread on this crash. This plane had two pilots though. They should have been able to identify that. But takeoff is pretty much the busiest time in a cockpit as it is and add in a suspected power loss and you can get task saturated and miss a lot of shite.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 8:44 am to airlinehwypanhandler
take-off is hardest on the plane and landing is hardest on the pilot. when I was in flight school this was drilled into me. Usually, engine failure will occur within the first few minutes of takeoff if there is some inherent issue .
Posted on 7/17/19 at 10:15 am to Vols&Shaft83
Tennis Competitors I’d Dallas sent this out yesterday. Our Fall season starts in a few weeks.
quote:
The Dallas tennis community, the Bent Tree Club family, and Tennis Competitors of Dallas tragically lost five of our members, teammates, and dear friends on June 30th. One of those whose life was taken that morning was Mary Titus, a member of the TCD Board of Directors and a champion for our Mixed Doubles League. Mary served the Mixed League as a team captain, a Flight Coordinator, and as its current Director. She was a tireless volunteer who cared greatly for our members and was a joy to work with. We will miss her and her husband John, Gina Thelen (and her husband Steve), Brian and Ornella Ellard (and their children), more than words can express. May their memories be a blessing to all who knew and loved them.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 10:45 am to JPinLondon
Left engine failure followed by a failure to lower the nose and add opposite rudder. You can clearly see a steep AOA and an uncoordinated turn. Twin engine planes are more than capable of flying without an engine, and twin engine commercial pilots are trained to fly with it, to the point that it is included on the check ride. (I am a pilot, although not commercial).
Posted on 7/17/19 at 10:52 am to Bedhog
That's what I thought. Tried a turn back. Under X amount of feet it's impossible.
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:49 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 10:59 am to 50_Tiger
I remember training at KNEW. the instructor would say. Engine out before 500' go for the lake, unless on the southern runway. Where it was "aim for the bunny bread plant, there is a field there" .
The one thing I remember from my instructor was he was always looking for good places to ditch.
Even did near touch and goes near us 11.
Though huge difference in a small plane with a 4 banger in the nose.
The one thing I remember from my instructor was he was always looking for good places to ditch.
Even did near touch and goes near us 11.
Though huge difference in a small plane with a 4 banger in the nose.
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:00 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:05 am to stout
quote:
I flew in one once and the whole time just watched as a "small" oil leak splattered all over the wing. Was a bit concerning but nothing happened thankfully.
Dad (retired USMC pilot) went to Mexico in a doctor friend's twin beech (a generic picture of one below). When they fired up the engines, they smoked it up.
Coming back, Dad was filing and the Dr. said "go low so we can get a good view" so Dad went low. Dad had flown in a Marine "Special Weapons" squadron, so low to him meant really low. He apparently scared the crap out of everyone.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:06 am to just1dawg
quote:
I cannot easily conceive of any reason for a 350 to crash on takeoff following an engine failure, except for this horrid mistake of mis-set friction knobs. A 350 on one engine, at max weight, with a feathered prop, outperforms most singles by a bunch!
Is this true Geauxx?
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:09 am to Bedhog
Yes, the 350 is an overpowered airplane. It will climb just fine on one engine at Max gross with the prop feathered.
And that quote came from Tom Clements, who is pretty much unanimously regarded in the industry as THE king air god.
And that quote came from Tom Clements, who is pretty much unanimously regarded in the industry as THE king air god.
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:10 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:10 am to GeauxxxTigers23
dayumm, thats bad arse. So, they use the same turbine for all models of the King Air?
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:12 am to Bedhog
They all use the Pratt & Whitney PT6. Different model king airs have different model PT6's with different horsepower and temperature limitations but they are all essentially the same engine.
The King Air B100 uses a Garrett engine. It was only built for a short time while P&W employees went on strike I believe.
The King Air B100 uses a Garrett engine. It was only built for a short time while P&W employees went on strike I believe.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:24 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Yes, the 350 is an overpowered airplane. It will climb just fine on one engine at Max gross with the prop feathered.
And that quote came from Tom Clements, who is pretty much unanimously regarded in the industry as THE king air god.
Is there a plausible failure mode that would have dropped power to the right engine coincidentally with whatever happened to the left?
ETA: i.e. two separate problems, either independent or linked?
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:26 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:28 am to tokenBoiler
The engines are completely independent from one another. If anything, once the airplane started to lose controllability and yaw/bank to the left, he should have reduced power on the right side if he couldn’t maintain directional control using just ailerons and rudders. But that’s a lot to think about and accomplish when you’re 100’ above the ground with an emergency situation on your hands.
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:29 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:38 am to GeauxxxTigers23
why aren't the throttles by default directly connected and the only way to disconnect them would be a 2 step process? Why would you need varying throttle to each motor separately?
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:41 am to Bedhog
quote:
Why would you need varying throttle to each motor separately?
I think stabilization in crosswinds would be one. Also in case of one engine failure or restart, etc
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:42 am to Bedhog
About a million reasons 
Doing able to use differential thrust during taxi is a big one.
Engines wear out at different rates so you have to use different power settings to get the same amount of torque. It’s not uncommon to have an inch split between the throttles on king airs.
And I could go on forever.
Doing able to use differential thrust during taxi is a big one.
Engines wear out at different rates so you have to use different power settings to get the same amount of torque. It’s not uncommon to have an inch split between the throttles on king airs.
And I could go on forever.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:43 am to Napoleon
quote:
That's what I thought. Tried a go around. Under X amount of feet it's impossible.
What do you mean “tried a go around”?
You can go around after landing, if you need to.
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:46 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
About a million reasons
Doing able to use differential thrust during taxi is a big one.
Engines wear out at different rates so you have to use different power settings to get the same amount of torque. It’s not uncommon to have an inch split between the throttles on king airs.
And I could go on forever.
then disconnect for taxi.
quote:I thought it was controlled by blade pitch on those? Can't that be trimmed out while the throttles are still connected? I honestly am just thinking there could be better engineering than to always have 2 engines deferentially controlled by default once in the air.
Engines wear out at different rates so you have to use different power settings to get the same amount of torque.
This post was edited on 7/17/19 at 11:47 am
Posted on 7/17/19 at 11:46 am to Thib-a-doe Tiger
quote:that's what the rudder is for.
I think stabilization in crosswinds would be one
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