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75 years ago this week.: The 2nd Schweinfurt raid.

Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:13 pm
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
46425 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:13 pm
60 US bombers and 650 men lost, over 20% of the attacking force.
Posted by BowlJackson
Birmingham, AL
Member since Sep 2013
52881 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:19 pm to
Germans
Posted by alajones
Huntsvegas
Member since Oct 2005
35970 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:22 pm to
Did you know the 8th Air Force lost more men in the skies over Europe than the Marines lost in the entire Pacific theater?
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
46425 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:26 pm to
The ETO was no joke.
Posted by doublecutter
Member since Oct 2003
7221 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:31 pm to
A good friend of mine's father was in the 8th Airforce and was shot down over Germany. The plane crashed in a field and a couple of the guy's survived the crash and made their way out of the plane and we're met by angry German civilians armed with axes, pitchforks, etc. The civilians were going to kill them when some German soldiers showed up and took the crash survivors into custody. He says that if it weren't for those soldiers intervening, he would have been killed by those farmers. He spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.
This post was edited on 10/16/18 at 7:32 pm
Posted by Strannix
C.S.A.
Member since Dec 2012
54210 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:36 pm to
Knew a ball turret gunner on it baw
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
96240 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:38 pm to
quote:

60 US bombers


The total force committed to the raid was 291 bombers (all B-17s, the B-24s were diverted) - and in addition to the 60 lost during the mission, 17 were so badly damaged they were scrapped.

So, for a percentage of bombers lost out of the force committed, it was closer to 27%.
This post was edited on 10/16/18 at 7:39 pm
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106042 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:44 pm to
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
46425 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 7:45 pm to
I read that poem a long time ago.
Posted by Volvagia
Fort Worth
Member since Mar 2006
53591 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 8:20 pm to
A lot of people don’t realize how much a meat grinder the air War was.

Especially given how that’s the primary MO of the modern American military: rapid air supremacy

He’ll, I was shocked by that element of the WW2 museum more than any other and I like to think of myself as an amateur history buff.

There were conflicts where we were sending fricking clouds of craft, and the Germans set them ablaze.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106042 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 8:29 pm to
I read that by the time lead planes of the bomber stream were over the target, the tail end were still taking off from bases in England
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
46425 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 8:29 pm to
quote:

There were conflicts where we were sending fricking clouds of craft, and the Germans set them ablaze.


And the Germans were holding down the Eastern front, so they couldn't send all their aircraft at the bombers.
Posted by Volvagia
Fort Worth
Member since Mar 2006
53591 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 8:32 pm to
I can’t imagine the stress of being in the tail then.


Think about it, at the vanguard you have the highest chance of being able to drop your payload and start moving out before primary response.

At the end the heaviest counter force elements have spooled up and are waiting for you.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
106042 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 8:39 pm to
They tried to use a lot of deception with diversionary raids and such, but only so much you can do.

The guys on the Ploesti raid were suicidally brave. Five Medals of Honor and 56 Distinguished Service Crosses.

This post was edited on 10/16/18 at 8:44 pm
Posted by Mr. Misanthrope
Cloud 8
Member since Nov 2012
6491 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 9:05 pm to
My first pastor was an 8th AAF B-17 pilot. His reminisces were horrific. Aircraft exploding when their payload took a direct hit. Aircraft hit and out of control hitting another aircraft.

The worst for me was him telling me how much debris was in the air and falling through the formations. Pieces of aircraft, spent shell casings, aircrew abandoning their damaged aircraft, tumbling knees tucked to chest through the formation in hopes of getting through to be able to open their parachutes.
He said many did not make it, some even doing damage to the B-17 they hit.

This may be why I think Twelve O'clock High is one of the best war movies made.
Posted by weagle99
Member since Nov 2011
35893 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 9:07 pm to
quote:

And the Germans were holding down the Eastern front, so they couldn't send all their aircraft at the bombers


Hitler doesn’t attack the Soviets he wins the war in Europe.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
96240 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 9:22 pm to
quote:

Twelve O'clock High is one of the best war movies made.


Paul Tibbets was initially the the military consultant on the film. Yes, THE Paul Tibbets (on whom John Kellogg's character MAJ Joe Cobb was based).

Speaking of life inspiring art - the character of Jesse Bishop was based on real 8th AAF pilot 2LT John C. Morgan, down to an almost verbatim inclusion of Morgan's CMH citation.

Morgan's reads:

quote:

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty, while participating on a bombing mission over enemy-occupied continental Europe, 28 (sic) July 1943. Prior to reaching the German coast on the way to the target, the B17 aircraft in which 2d Lt. (sic) Morgan was serving as co-pilot was attacked by a large force of enemy fighters, during which the oxygen system to the tail, waist, and radio gun positions was knocked out. A frontal attack placed a cannon shell through the windshield, totally shattering it, and the pilot's skull was split open by a .303 caliber shell, leaving him in a crazed condition. The pilot fell over the steering wheel, tightly clamping his arms around it. 2d Lt. Morgan at once grasped the controls from his side and, by sheer strength, pulled the aircraft back into formation despite the frantic struggles of the semiconscious pilot. The interphone had been destroyed, rendering it impossible to call for help. At this time the top turret gunner fell to the floor and down through the hatch with his arm shot off at the shoulder and a gaping wound in his side. The waist, tail, and radio gunners had lost consciousness from lack of oxygen and, hearing no fire from their guns, the copilot believed they had bailed out. The wounded pilot still offered desperate resistance in his crazed attempts to fly the aircraft. There remained the prospect of flying to and over the target and back to a friendly base wholly unassisted. In the face of this desperate situation, 2d Lt. Officer Morgan made his decision to continue the flight and protect any members of the crew who might still be in the ship and for 2 hours he flew in formation with one hand at the controls and the other holding off the struggling pilot before the navigator entered the steering compartment and relieved the situation. The miraculous and heroic performance of 2d Lt. Morgan on this occasion resulted in the successful completion of a vital bombing mission and the safe return of his aircraft and crew.



Morgan continued to fly and, like Bishop in the film, was ultimately shot down over Germany and captured. He remains the only U.S. serviceman to become a POW after receiving the Medal of Honor.


Posted by Wolfhound45
Member since Nov 2009
127595 posts
Posted on 10/16/18 at 9:34 pm to
This post was edited on 10/16/18 at 9:35 pm
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